Prostitutes
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I've always viewed prostitution as an occupation you turn to if you were really desperate for cash, or if you were an ugly nymphomaniac. I've never actually thought about how degrading it was until my friend recently told me how the places in Geylang really look like.
I've always thought that they were like the brothels in the Channel 8 drama serials. My friend told me that it's just a small place with girls sitting there with numbers and the guy picks and chooses. It's kind of like buying meat. How awful can that get?
Yet, men go there. And I'll never comprehend why. They say females cannot enjoy a sexual relationship without getting emotionally involved, whereas men just indulge as their penises demand. So how do these poor girls in Geylang get by? Knowing that every day they look at themselves and think: I'm a whore.
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You call prossies 'ugly nymphomaniacs' and 'degrading' whereas in your previous topic 'He's a stud, but she's a slut. Why?', you whine about the double standards practised 'That when a guy sleeps with a girl, he scores; when a girl sleeps with a guy, she's cheap.'
How do you feel about the idea of a prostitute working as one because she enjoys it?.. she's a sheSTUD BABY! -
This remind me of the time a fren asked after a porn show.. "Hey.. why did the girl do this job(star in the porn show). She could have led a simple life and go by..."
And I said.. "While you were watching and thinking.. and feeling sympathetic, she's laughing her way to the bank. And she's youger than u..."
And that brings me to the point. If men were multi-orgasimic, will prostitute be more expensive?
And for once.. I was sympathetic too... for myself.
[This message has been edited by Illegal Operation (edited 02 April 2000).] -
Prostitution is an very old job and it has been going on all over the world even today. I can only pity to those girls who really make for a living but not for those who are on drugs.
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*sigh*
as i've alluded in my post in the 'he's a stud, she's a slut' thread, many of the loci for identification and objectification are used as much by FEMALES as by males.
some women whine and hanker for complete de-objectification of the labels but happily go on about 'ugly nymphomaniacs'and how men only think with their penises. if complete de-objectification is to take place, why is it females themselves attach the same amount of stigma on prostitutes - stigma being a social construct - since prostitutes themselves do not see degradation as much as economic well-being?
feminism only serves its initial calling when it calls, very rightly, for equal reward and recognition for equal work. however, by serving up arguments for the wretchedness of prostitution with premises like 'degrading' and 'buying meat' are blatantly participating in a male discourse themselves. they should instead look for disparity in medical, economic, social and physical well-being between prostitutes and a conventional job, and argue for equality, if they want to have a stronger case.
it is because of their failure to do so that i think the feminist movement in s'pore, unlike in most western countries, is a joke.
cheerio -
I'm not sure if people will agree with this, but I think prostitutes are earning honest money. They are not conning people, they are not stealing.
I can't say for sure, however, that we have to feel sorry for all of them. Perhaps for most of the people who sell their body, most are desparate. A lot have drug problems and have no other skills to rely on to pay the habit, or do not have time to earn an honest living.
Yet, I've read about prostitutes who are proud of the power they wield over men. As for male prostitutes, most of them treat it as a job, with the occasional perks. Perhaps those are people who don't have the same approach towards sex compared to other people.
There are obviously a lot of reasons why people get into this occupation. Some have no other choice, others think its easy money. -
Oh, I thought a good aspiration would be making prostitution legal because as pacman said, prostitutes steal from no one. Then I was told that it is already legal here in Singapore. I think the next step should be treating it like any other profession so that the prostitutes will not be leeched by their pimps.
But I am not sure that they themselves have gone so comfortable with their jobs, and their clients, that they actually think it's "easy money". Many Singaporeans shy away from foreign construction workers and have those prostitutes grown numb to them queueing in front of the whore house, and later "serving" them? And there are so many sexual fetishes and positions and actions and whatnots, I don't think the money is that easy.
And for the number of them that feel powerful, there will be as many thinking if they could they would find some other job and start anew. Some of the voluntary groups in Thailand are teaching these pros new skills so that they may leave if they want to.
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Why be difficult when with a little more effort you can be impossible? -
Interestingly, whilst prostitution is legal, pimping, on the other hand, is illegal in Singapore.Originally posted by MayaJade:I think the next step should be treating it like any other profession so that the prostitutes will not be leeched by their pimps.
Regards,
Paul Mah. -
I don't mean to say that they get comfortable. When I said about those that enjoy the power, I was referring to those that didn't have the shit conditions that the others had, and whose clientele include people like film stars.
I have to agree that the majority have to put up with crap conditions. When I said easy money, I mean to say that they can earn a lot for doing relatively "nothing." Its still honest money. -
if you guys think legalised prostitution and illegal pimping is a tough paradox, check this out - even soliciting is illegal, which means only customers can approach a working girl.
to be fair the health and medical state of prostitutes in s'pore is not as dire as say US or UK. back home working girls are required by law to undergo routine checks and the low drug rate does not contribute to correlational vice accumulation.
unfortunately, its pimping that's a problem, like its is in US and UK. the demands and deception employed by men (like hata-san - just kidding!
) to procure and secure regional girls are quite morally devious. for the purpose of entry permits, work permits, immigration checks and ultimately as false promise to the girls themselves - pimps put down would-be occupations like waitress, hostress, PR officers etc. it all turns sour when the girls get here. violence is also another factor.
another problem - also a problem in US and UK, but more so in s'pore - is the social stigma attached to these girls. even self-professed feminists who ride on the fundamental principle of equal reward and zero-tolerance to violence and marginalisation also talk about prostitutes with the same mindset of their anathema - the male chauvinist pig.
cheerio -
pacman: you said "getting money for relatively nothing". You know it's not true. Having sex is tiring. And if I may be detailed, giving oral sex and hand job are exhausting. I don't know what's exactly going on there, man, but do you think that those men just want somebody to lie like a log while they do all the work? Do you think the mamasan will be overly angry if the customers just love to pull the women's hair, not so hard until the hair is torn but hard enough for it to hurt badly?
As for the "powerful" ones whose clients are movie stars, does being a movie star guarantee that one
1) will not demand for something beyond a "normal" service? For all we know he may have a sadistic streak or requires the prostitute to bark like a dog the whole night long?
2) will be cleaner and healthier and more pleasing physically than ordinary men?
3) will be a nicer human?
Terence: agree. So what do you think about prostitution and prostitutes?
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Why be difficult when with a little more effort you can be impossible? -
*laughing*
pacman,
you've got old Miss MonaMayaLisa on your case real good eh? *offers metal shield for protection* seriously though, if one is sexually experienced, one will know sex is not an untiring business. even between a loving couple it is extracting, what more when a girl is paid to perform?
maya,
as for oral sex and hand jobs, i happen to know girls who actually enjoy the two and can go on for days (i exaggerate but you get my point) so tiredness is not a factor. never underestimate the power of love. *laughs*
i think prostitution should remain legal because it'll never be 'eradicated' even if it weren't. i think in an ideal world, prostitutes should be prostitutes because they want to. employment opportunities should be available and should they shun conventional jobs for the better pay, then i pray they have enough sense to take the necessary precautions. as such i would like to see legislation on the use of condoms with prostitutes - though how can it be enforced? in an ideal world....i would also like to see less of the social stigma attached and the reduction of the type of lexicon we get here, i.e. demeaning, dirty, cheap, whores, sluts etc. in an ideal world.....
cheerio -
When we think of prostitutiton we only think of bad think relating to it but looking deeper into this profession, one can see that prostitution is also a job which contributes to the society. They indirectly lower down crime rates. Crimes like rape and molest are likely to rise if there are no prostitutes. Think of those foreign workers working in the country, think of what they would do if they had sexual desires. Lets face it, most men have sexual desires, and not all men can have a partner to have sex. It is inevitable that when there are no prostitutes case of rapes would happen. Lets not despise this profession and look upon it as any other one.
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JUST MY VIEW -
Well,
I don't practise discrimination.
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Yes¿ No¿ Maybe¿ -
Terence:
I'm fearless. I'm not scared of Mayajade. Sheesh, now I'm going to get it....
Mayajade:
You are making look bad my friend...
You forgot the quotation marks (")when you quoted me on that "relatively nothing." Its my fault for being too lazy to elaborate.
I was not referring to physical exhaustion. I was thinking more on the fact that they don't have to go through years of training for their job. I was thinking of those lonely people (whom I THINK make up the majority of the clients of prostitues) who look for someone to relieve sexual tension, not for the stuff that they will probably get arrested for doing to their partners, if they had one. I was thinking of those people who just want fellatio but are too scared to ask their partners for it. I hope you get the picture, because I don't think that all the people who go looking for sexual services are SM crazed psychos who like to inflict pain. I can't say that there aren't people like that, but I'm talking about the majority.
You ask if I thought men wanted the women to lie like a log while they did whatever they wanted, well I do think that the majority of them do. Well, not like a log perhaps, but at least be submissive. Do correct me if I am wrong.
On your points about high powered clientele, I agree on all counts. It can happen, but I'm not sure it does. With high level players like that, they cannot afford to go around risking what they have. The services they go to have to have a professionalism about them, and with this professionalism comes some for of safe guard mechanism. I.e. that film star spank too hard, the bouncer will spank him instead. Nevertheless, I still maintain that sex workers working at this level do not face the risks that other sex workers face.
Maybe I'm wrong about that "nothing" stuff. Maybe I'm too liberal about these things. I get the impression that sex workers either treat sex (read: SEX) as no big deal. Others who are forced into this vocation come to look at it this way as well. Hence the "nothing."
But after reading some of the posts, I also think I might have too rosy a picture for my fellow brothers of the male kingdom. I'll have a think about it.
[This message has been edited by pacman (edited 05 April 2000).] -
Hi Terence,
Finally, I have being lured into this interesting domain. I was reading about your reply on legalisation of prostitution. I recalled that I was debating on the proposition side of it. Here are some of the points raised. Let's see how the others would look at it :
1)Legalisation of prostitutes would allow us to properly monitor the Nation's health, in the issue of sexually transmitted diseases, AIDS and also the contraception issued. The good thing is that it ensure both the rights of those who are the customers and the prostitutes.
By setting up proper legislation, we can have the ministry giving licences to brothels. This would also help to reduce sexual crime. The poor prostitutes are working for money and their rights should be respected as well. Legalizing prostitution would help them to ensure that they would suffer unjustly sexual or violent crimes. Besides, the Health ministry could issue health checks for them so that it can ensure the decrease in STDs and AIDS.
2)Prostitution is an ongoing thing since the dawn of time. Even though it is illegal, but the good thing is that if we legalise it, we can tax those dirty old tourists heavily for such services, hence we can earn some revenue.
3)Legalisation of Prostitution would also allow the country to effectively deal with teenager prostitutes. If there is a proper legalized red-light district, we can curb young gals walking up to u and offer their services. Effectively, we can actually stop young gals turning into prostitutes.
Let's see how the arguments go from here... Well, I should have about 7 more hours before leaving town for a holiday... -
Terence: can go about them for days??? lucky you. by the way, can I measure the love I have for someone by my willingness to work on him?
pacman: i guess we'll never convince each other on how many people are "normal" unless we really get down and interview the ladies themselves. I admit of looking too much at BDSM sites so I perhaps it has clouded my judgement on the nature of sexual desires of men in general. However, besides those who just want an outlet, there are those who dare not ask from their wives certain favours. Perhaps they are just shy, but perhaps what they want will get their wives shrieking "you animal!"
On the matter that they do not need to train or study to do their jobs, does that in any way make the job easier?
Prodigal and Terence: agree agree agree. but for now i don't know what else to say *grins*
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Why be difficult when with a little more effort you can be impossible? -
hi,
if we agree prostitution should be and remain legalised, what about the age limit? where do we draw the line between young and too young? 18? 16?
i'm also sceptically on the workability of clientele taxation. how do you enforce this? there will be people who refuse to pay tax and there will be pimps who want a bigger cut. besides, not all dirty old men write 'dirty old business' under the 'purpose of visit' in their immigration forms. taxation is not a good idea because it creates more problems than it solves. the higher the tax, the bigger the number of girls offering tax-free services (hence illegal again)to meet the demand.
maya,
sure thing. practise makes perfect! *wink wink*
cheerio -
Mayajade:
Its a deal. One of these days we will go down and interview them ourselves. With the permission of your many admirers of course. -
a geylang tour? hmm. i hope it is safe. i am very cowardly and i do not fancy getting beaten up by the pimps. a guy actually wanted to make a film on prostitution and he went there to get a feel of the place and to interview the characters there. some burly men terrorized the poor film-maker. maybe we went there first to get a feel and to see if questions will be welcomeD?
I don't have admirers, in fact I am the one admiring them, including you, paccie darling.
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Why be difficult when with a little more effort you can be impossible? -
"I was not referring to physical exhaustion. I was thinking more on the fact that they don't have to go through years of training for their job."
ahhh, mr pacman, that's where u are slightly off the mark. Coming from a person who is quite intimate with the sex industry,i know for a fact that the professionals prostitues, aka those that work in the legalised whorehouse, recieve training prior to their posting to overseas attachment. The rudimentey basics like hand jobs and blow jobs just to name a few, are taught stringently by their masters and employers. Most girls, to a certain extent, does have trainings and woe betide the girl who know nuts about the working of sex if she starts work in our legalised brothel. ha! imagine a secretary who can't type, u catch my drift?
And one more interesting thing to add, the act of making out involves skill and girls who are skilled in this tends to command higher premium. Of course, this has to be tempered with looks too. I do know of one girl who happens to be under my charge not long ago who looks like Cherie Chung and make out like a nymph who have been caged up for years...needless to say, she's extremely popular and "expensive"
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The Far East Pilgrim -
Whoops. Thanks for the pointer Hata_san. Thats clears up one misconception on my part.
Hey, if you are closer to the industry we are talking about, care to give some comments from an insiders point of view? -
People work for Money same goes to the PROSTITUTE ..... they r working for it.
Just bcoz society thinks iz wrong ..... fuck all ... they work and they earn .. be it.
Why sex for free when u can get paid for it... yeah rite.. coz of love and attraction.
Well... Prostitute r better the all the free ride u find in club and pubs ... all the joy rider ger.
Did I see BLOW JOB???? How Much???
Demand and Supply / sell and buy... that iz buisness. -
snafu,
erm, i think you're missing the point of the discussion. no one here's denying the labour/wages system of prostitution.
also,
'Well... Prostitute r better the all the free ride u find in club and pubs ... all the joy rider ger.'
you may want to brush up on your spelling; and grammar whilst you're at it. i have no idea what you are ranting on about.
cheerio -
Terence,
Sorry for my spellin ..bla..bla..bla....ranting..bla..bla.. anythin' else??? me only finish kidergarden class not even primary school.
Where iz me freekin dictionary .... *sigh* I dont even have that!!!! I'm buggered now!!
If u dont understand wat I'm writin bout .. well lucky u ... we have different wavelength .. urs much higher then mine.
wat iz worth ..... nothin more nothin less
Eh.. can u be my english teacher and teach me proper english ......??????