Out of curiosity (II)
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fymk,
I'm still not convinced by your explanations as to why you should be labelling the other forummites with the rather derogatory label of 'quacks'. Let's take it point by point:
Pardon me, but I don't seem to see anyone here who 'dishonestly claims to have medical knowledge'. Thinkdifferent herself said that she's not a doctor, but an assistant to the two doctors. As far as I can tell, there's no one here who's masquerading as a doctor or the like. Heck, for all you know, I myself could be pretending to be a combat medic. Touch my heart, I'm not pretending, but there's no way for me to prove that either without revealing my identity (which I won't). You're just going to have to take my word for it.
Oxford definition : quack
• noun 1 an unqualified person who dishonestly claims to have medical knowledgeYour mom is doing what mothers do - they relieve ur symptoms from their own experience -. It is called maternal instinct , not quackery . It pains most mothers to see their child suffer . Sometimes decisions mother makes may not be right but they never intend their own child harm because the children are own flesh and blood . It is a protective instinct . That makes it so different from quack .
I won't underestimate the power of maternal instinct, but you shouldn't deny the power of a person's love for the common man, either. What if a Tan Ah Kow with no medical experience advises his friend to take clarinase for his runny nose? Is that quackery as well?
This is called human instinct. Not as powerful as maternal instinct, but nothing to be sneezed at, either (pardon the pun). We're just trying to help others here.However I will not take back the word I used to describe thinkdifferent
I've read the posts you quoted from thinkdifferent, and I still fail to see what's wrong with them. First of all, the post on BCG vaccinations: it's true that she should have checked out her sources first before posting. However, that's what these forums are all about: to discuss, to advise, and to correct each other if necessary.
Besides, from my sources she's not completely wrong: BCG has an effective rate of between 50-80%, according to wikipedia. You see? Different sources give different information. So we share the information and decide what's the best route to take.
Second, nasal swelling. What's wrong with her saying 'I think'? If anything, I ought to be applauding her for correctly qualifying her statements at the very beginning. When she says 'I think', she's just giving a possible opinion, and that what she thinks may not necessarily be the case. I myself will always say 'I think' before explaining to the casualties I've encountered about what injuries/illness they might be having.
And since she thinks it's an allergy, of course she'll go more into allergies.
Thirdly, dry cough. What's wrong with asking about other symptoms? Surely you of all people should know about this. Whenever I'm doing triage duty, I always ask for other symptoms before sending the patients to the medical officer. If the patient says he has a cough, I sure as heck would ask him if there were any other symptoms of flu. That's the standard operational procedure.
If the forummites can't even ask about other possible symptoms, then what do you expect them to say?
'Hey, visit the doctor.'
'Hey, visit the doctor.'
'Hey, visit the doctor.'
If that's the only thing they can say, then it kind of defeats the purpose of having a health discussion forum, methinks. I think an answering machine can say 'Hey, visit the doctor' more efficiently. -
Originally posted by ShrodingersCat
Err.. I think the web is notorious for inaccurate information.
Got some good websites. Go search around.
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Eh I think you misread my post
I did not say there are NO good and informative websites around
I did however say the world wide web is notorious for misinformation
two different things really
However, accredition of information obtained from reliable websites is a good practice. -
If I could suggest to them, I would do it. The thing is, they are barely online.Originally by fymkAnd the forumners reading it has no idea whether the person is qualified to give the opinion .Is this aspect not right? The reader may not be aware if the information given is just ripped off the internet from some galanguni website . Is it not right?
Now if this forum is not run by medical doctors, every one would just come and ask for opinion from anyone or rip information off from the net and I won't care . However look at the stickys and tell me what you see. Virtual Clinic, medical interview etc . Now there is the implied suggestion that it is ran by qualified personnel .
Look at how aunt agony is ran - no one implied they are qualified to give advice ever - every one just put up their opinion and that's it . Speaker's corner - no one ever said they are politicians right? Of course we have some WP and PAP supporters but as the name implies - anyone can go in . Same with SAF - any NS guy can go in and post about his personal problems in SAF or talk about blanket parties etc .
Not this forum . What angers me is that naive people could well be hurt . Regardless of commonsense or not , some will make the mistake of taking advice which may or may not be right .
Maybe you should suggest to thinkdifferent or oxford mushroom to put a disclaimer asap that advice given here are not accredited and should therefore the moderators are not accountable for any mishaps that might have occurred and furthermore some moderators are not qualified to give certain advice except discuss it in a general tone . Then I am off the case. It is THAT SIMPLE TO PUT A STICKY for a moderator - takes a few words and whoa lah ! Done .
Medical interviews and all... probably it implies that they are really qualified professionals. I don't know that, you don't know that and all of us don't know that. What I can say is that you just have to patiently wait for them to come back. We are free during this period of time, but not them. -
Ok, my mistake.Originally posted by ShrodingersCat:Eh I think you misread my post
I did not say there are NO good and informative websites around
I did however say the world wide web is notorious for misinformation
two different things really
However, accredition of information obtained from reliable websites is a good practice.
I apologize for that. Misread and misunderstood in the midst of this argument. Got carried away too far.
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Firstly, renorenal was flamed because of some unknown reasons. It's in the Marfan Syndrome thread. Secondly, PM didn't solve the problem. He went on to set up a forum. I shall not bring up that forum name, but if you are curious, just search around. It has nothing to do with the disclaimer, which is causing a fiery debate now.Originally by fymkYes . If he had posted a disclaimer then he would not gotten flamed because he can always point to it and say accept the conditions when u post here.
How would you know between a hypochondriac and a person who has a genuine complaint? To a hypochondriac , the symptoms are real but the tests may or maynot show otherwise . Ever heard of Munchausen's syndrome? Or Munchaunsen by proxy? Those are psychiatric illnesses whereby they make themselves sick and not tell the doctors that it is self inflicted and both are VERY HArd to diagnose . Even with patients in real life showing up at a doctor's practice or hospital - it is difficult to see who is very anxious to the point of having somatic pain or who is experiencing real pain. How would a doctor online make out a test when the patient themselves sometimes have no idea of the lab result except the usual " oh my doctor said I have anaemia" . Now anaemia comes in many forms : sickle cell anaemia , pernicuous anaemia , thalaessemia related anaemias etc .
Oh by the way , that was part of my medical history which I threw in - my doctors just said I am healthy except for high red cell count with beta thalaessemic minor . Oh yes I am a freak of nature according to them because people like me are usually anaemic or mildly but never with high red blood cell counts - one did say my body could be compensating for the poor binding capability in the heme .
That is why the forum needs a disclaimer to protect the moderators as well as the public from any thing untoward. -
Originally posted by fymk:
Indeed you are helping us, but I believe there's a nicer and more polite way to do so. Can't you use the PM? Or rather get their MSN or Yahoo Messenger account and add them and discuss over there? Then, after the disclaimer is up, we discuss how to improve it. Not fight over here.
Is it going to hurt anyone when you talk about the rise of Islam in European Union? Well , you just have to make sure your facts are right or else a muslim may just hammer you back with the facts. But that doesn't hurt , does it?
People will be people and there will always be someone who will take what could be a wrongly dispensed medical advice seriously .Why? For reasons unknown or maybe the person is suffering from some incurable disease and in denial about it . Who knows? There could be smart people reading and very naive people reading - who is going to say who is not behind the computer?
I am not threatening . I am putting forth 2 pointers for their own good and the good of others . If oxford mushroom, alfagal and renorenal wants to put advice - it is their call and their registration if they are willing to risk it , [b] presumably they are registered at all . They would know about conducts and ethics of the medical profession if advice is given wrongly and some naive person really get harmed by the advice.
The Good Samaritan Act only covers when a person is in iminent danger and cpr is required and maybe ACLs when there is no other people or places nearby to help but he dies - it covers the medical / healthcare professional within the limit he can practice. After that - open house on a law suit .
It certainly does not cover them from law suits ( yes , there are people who do that) until their disclaimer comes up.
If I wanted to make trouble for them , I would not even say anything about a disclaimer. I won't even bother putting forth explanations. And I won't certainly be bothered telling thinkdifferent to refer people to reputable websites, use medical journals at all or maybe just tell people to visit the doctors and ask .
I could have sit back and done nothing at all and laugh at some of them until one day someone puts up the fact that something DID went wrong and then I will tell them to complain to MOH . That could be worse for the poor well meaning and qualified moderators .
It is all in fairness I asked for the purpose of clarifying something and all I got was answers which are beyond belief . Being human , of course, with nothing to restrain me online , I say what I think directly .
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I just don't see what's wrong with asking more about the symptoms. Each symptom indicate different things. Like running a temperature. You should know that different strains of viruses and bacteria produces a different range of temperature. By looking at the temperature, you can narrow down the possibilities.Originally posted by thinkdifferent:
Any other symptomps (temperature, running nose, sore throat, fatigue) or the cough only?[/quote]
[quote]Originally posted by fymk:Alfagal, another moderator in this forum , did the right thing by asking the guy to bring his father to see a doctor . However thinkdifferent did post the above, that says alot more. -
To come up with a proper disclaimer. As you are already called thinkdifferent a quack, would you agree with the disclaimer that she puts up? Just wait patiently. Doctors are busy people. Not as free like me or you.Originally posted by fymk:Another thing , I don't see why it is so difficult to put up a sticky to act as a disclaimer . Kindly enlighten me on why the disclaimer needs to await discussion? -
I still don't get you. Other than a piece of physical paper, what other things are there? I know that there is a professional medical body out there that we can check with.Originally posted by Gedanken:Gotta disagree with you there, mayi.
You're thinking about certification in terms of a physical piece of paper. The paper is in fact nothing more than a representation of the person's registration with the regulatory body, the person having first passed the professional standards required by that body to practice in that particular field.
For example, if someone showed you a practising certificate from the Singapore Medical Council, you could call the SMC and ask if he is indeed a doctor. No matter how well he Photoshopped the certificate, if the SMC says he's not on their list, you'll know he's a fake.
Anyway, you've just demonstrated a point that I made. Lay people need to know these things about their health care providers, but they don't, and instead they count on certificates that can be faked without understanding the system behind those certificates. It's a dangerous world out there. -
Agree with you.Originally posted by fudgester:fymk,
I'm still not convinced by your explanations as to why you should be labelling the other forummites with the rather derogatory label of 'quacks'. Let's take it point by point:
quote:
Oxford definition : quack
• noun 1 an unqualified person who dishonestly claims to have medical knowledge
Pardon me, but I don't seem to see anyone here who 'dishonestly claims to have medical knowledge'. Thinkdifferent herself said that she's not a doctor, but an assistant to the two doctors. As far as I can tell, there's no one here who's masquerading as a doctor or the like. Heck, for all you know, I myself could be pretending to be a combat medic. Touch my heart, I'm not pretending, but there's no way for me to prove that either without revealing my identity (which I won't). You're just going to have to take my word for it.
quote:Your mom is doing what mothers do - they relieve ur symptoms from their own experience -. It is called maternal instinct , not quackery . It pains most mothers to see their child suffer . Sometimes decisions mother makes may not be right but they never intend their own child harm because the children are own flesh and blood . It is a protective instinct . That makes it so different from quack .
I won't underestimate the power of maternal instinct, but you shouldn't deny the power of a person's love for the common man, either. What if a Tan Ah Kow with no medical experience advises his friend to take clarinase for his runny nose? Is that quackery as well?
This is called human instinct. Not as powerful as maternal instinct, but nothing to be sneezed at, either (pardon the pun). We're just trying to help others here.
quote:However I will not take back the word I used to describe thinkdifferent
I've read the posts you quoted from thinkdifferent, and I still fail to see what's wrong with them. First of all, the post on BCG vaccinations: it's true that she should have checked out her sources first before posting. However, that's what these forums are all about: to discuss, to advise, and to correct each other if necessary.
Besides, from my sources she's not completely wrong: BCG has an effective rate of between 50-80%, according to wikipedia. You see? Different sources give different information. So we share the information and decide what's the best route to take.
Second, nasal swelling. What's wrong with her saying 'I think'? If anything, I ought to be applauding her for correctly qualifying her statements at the very beginning. When she says 'I think', she's just giving a possible opinion, and that what she thinks may not necessarily be the case. I myself will always say 'I think' before explaining to the casualties I've encountered about what injuries/illness they might be having.
And since she thinks it's an allergy, of course she'll go more into allergies.
Thirdly, dry cough. What's wrong with asking about other symptoms? Surely you of all people should know about this. Whenever I'm doing triage duty, I always ask for other symptoms before sending the patients to the medical officer. If the patient says he has a cough, I sure as heck would ask him if there were any other symptoms of flu. That's the standard operational procedure.
If the forummites can't even ask about other possible symptoms, then what do you expect them to say?
'Hey, visit the doctor.'
'Hey, visit the doctor.'
'Hey, visit the doctor.'
If that's the only thing they can say, then it kind of defeats the purpose of having a health discussion forum, methinks. I think an answering machine can say 'Hey, visit the doctor' more efficiently. -
Different range of temperature? . I don't get you in this aspect .Originally posted by ndmmxiaomayi:I just don't see what's wrong with asking more about the symptoms. Each symptom indicate different things. Like running a temperature. You should know that different strains of viruses and bacteria produces a different range of temperature. By looking at the temperature, you can narrow down the possibilities.
Bacterial sepsis and viral infections can show temp spikes ...yes but if you mean temperature above a certain range means a bacterial or viral infection - that would be wrong.
a person can have a co infection ( viral and bacteria) and his/her temperature only serves to indicate my body is fighting an infection - that much yes - that is why they do blood cultures above 38.5 or sometimes even 38 degree celcius for bacterial culture to see if there is sepsis .
Even with viral - u can get 38.5 degree celcius fever ....doesn't say much . -
I mean this. Shouldn't have return those books to the library. If not, can write a proper one.Originally posted by fymk:Different range of temperature? . I don't get you in this aspect .
Bacterial sepsis and viral infections can show temp spikes ...yes but if you mean temperature above a certain range means a bacterial or viral infection - that would be wrong.
a person can have a co infection ( viral and bacteria) and his/her temperature only serves to indicate my body is fighting an infection - that much yes - that is why they do blood cultures above 38.5 or sometimes even 38 degree celcius for bacterial culture to see if there is sepsis .
Even with viral - u can get 38.5 degree celcius fever ....doesn't say much .
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Do you mean something like this web site?Originally posted by ndmmxiaomayi:I mean this. Shouldn't have return those books to the library. If not, can write a proper one.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/search/search
Type in fever.
That is a reputable website which explains ordinary terms to the layman . And they do have a Q&A section which shows the qualification and name of each and every specialist answering the questions. That is accountability and responsibility . Dietitians do answer in food and nutrition because that is their specialty , even doctors have to consult them sometimes. Other allied health members like physios - answer mobility questions etc .
Mayo always a good example . And look below where their terms and conditions are - they ask u to abide by them if you enter the website- that is their disclaimer -
Thanks.
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Originally posted by fymk
Either I could have misunderstood that but the way it was put forward- she gave me an impression that she hijacked renorenal's answer ( to be fair reno gives sound answers) and posed it as her own when she told the other forumner to post the link to it.
That was a wrong link, my name isn't on the site. This is the link
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=164066&page=5
Again I said "I think" as it is my opinion and opinions in discussions are allowed.
I can't make presumptions and tell the forumers to take them for granted as I am not the doctor.
Anyway, I'm glad fymk was today less agressive, atleast I got that impression. I am not able to type more as I need to rest, I am really busy these days and yesterday after finishing my post in this thread fainted from exhaustion and headache. -
You've just answered yourself. Don't ever be satisfied with a piece of paper that someone waves at you - check with the organisation that issued the certificate (e.g. an SMC cert will have SMC written on it somewhere) and find out if the person is really registered with them.Originally posted by ndmmxiaomayi:I still don't get you. Other than a piece of physical paper, what other things are there? I know that there is a professional medical body out there that we can check with.
Ok, for example, if Doctor Teo Tak Sai and waves a cert at you, all you need to do is go to http://www.moh-healthprofessionals.gov.sg/PRSCPDS/home/hpp/search.jsp, enter the name and hit search. You will find that there is no record of him at the SMC and you will therefore know that his beautifully Photoshopped cert is bunkum.
On the other hand, if you look for Dr Ang Ai Ling (name randomly pulled out from the register), you will see that she's not only registered with them, but also that she's got an MBBS from Singapore and psychiatry training in the UK.
It's that simple to do a quick check of the person's bona fides with a regulatory body - why would you then want to trust a simple piece of paper? -
Better see a doctor . Fatigue is no good .Originally posted by thinkdifferent:Originally posted by fymk
Either I could have misunderstood that but the way it was put forward- she gave me an impression that she hijacked renorenal's answer ( to be fair reno gives sound answers) and posed it as her own when she told the other forumner to post the link to it.
That was a wrong link, my name isn't on the site. This is the link
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=164066&page=5
Again I said "I think" as it is my opinion and opinions in discussions are allowed.
I can't make presumptions and tell the forumers to take them for granted as I am not the doctor.
Anyway, I'm glad fymk was today less agressive, atleast I got that impression. I am not able to type more as I need to rest, I am really busy these days and yesterday after finishing my post in this thread fainted from exhaustion and headache. -
hi all,
yeah tis arugment has gone long and hard.
all i ask from all, is to have some more patience and understanding, before we come up with a disclaimer.
tis clinic does not only belongs to me and TD only. think she has made a good decision to wait for reno and OM to come back, consult them before we come up w something.
Cheers -
Whats with those people typing out their credentials and claiming people are quacks?
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it's called histrionics.Originally posted by seow:Whats with those people typing out their credentials and claiming people are quacks?
sometimes good intentions can be warped and made inadvertantly nasty when passed through the hands of us human beings. -
You want to start another flaming war?Originally posted by seow:Whats with those people typing out their credentials and claiming people are quacks?
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I have been away for just two weeks for CNY and another flame war started?
Haven't had time to read all the comments (no point reading those in a flame war...bad for the heart and mind anyway). Many of the negative comments I read are not worth repeating...lots of angst, anger and even arrogance....but I do not want to re-start flame wars. Here are my views:
As I previously PM to alexkusu when the idea of such a forum came up, I suggested a disclaimer of sorts, but not for the reason some of you might think. To those who talked about disclaimers on websites, you may not realize that often they are not worth the paper they are printed on. Having a disclaimer does NOT protect you from litigation if someone suffers harm from your advice.
In a negligence suit, you have to prove a duty of care, dereliction of duty, damage and causation. If you receive medical advice from a website of the Mayo Clinic about your specific condition from one of its employees, you might reasonably suspect that a doctor-patient relationship exists. A disclaimer is useful in this context to inform the viewer that the website does not acknowledge such a relationship. However, it does not prevent you from arguing that having Dr ABC from Mayo Clinic telling you your condition requires a particular treatment constitutes a doctor-patient relationship, regardless of what the disclaimer says.....and you may indeed be right.
In a forum such as this, when the participants are anonymous and even as some critics admitted, they do not know if the moderators are health professionals, how is one going to argue that a doctor-patient relationship exist in the first place? I have said that I am a medical doctor but how is anyone to know?
As I have said before during the earlier flame war involving renorenal, a forum such as this is purely for information and entertainment. Nobody should or can successfully claim that a doctor-patient relationship exists simply because XYZ advises a particular course of action in a thread. Incidentally, one would have to sue Sgforums.com rather than some phantom entity who can dispense advice under a multitude of clones. Interestingly, I have not seen any disclaimers by Sgforums.com; and I would certainly put one up if I were Jason or Fireice. Not so much for fear of negligence suits (one would be laughed out of our courts) but the very real possibility of defamation (which is no laughing matter in Singapore).
Back to the reason I suggested a disclaimer so long ago...I thought it was a good idea just in case there are naive persons as suggested by certain critics, who might think that they can substitute the need to see a doctor by getting free consultation through cyberspace. To the cheapskates who might be tempted to save some money by not seeing a GP, the disclaimer would warn them that they would not have the full legal protection of a doctor-patient relationship by relying on information on the Web. In other words, the disclaimer is not placed to avoid being sued, it is to tell the patient that chances are that you will not be able to seek legal redress without a proper consultation in a doctor's office.
Incidentally, why would doctors and lawyers give free consultations when we should be earning good money for them? I am not allowed to advertise or I would leave my practice address here
This is the form of a disclaimer I had in mind. If the other moderators are in favour, we can put it up. It has no legal effect but serves to inform, which is after all, the purpose of this forum as well:
"The information and materials on this forum are provided by the moderators and other users for general informational purposes only and not for the purpose of providing medical advice or giving a medical opinion on any specific facts or circumstances. Your use of this forum does not create a doctor-patient relationship between you and the moderators or any other users." -
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Ah, LL has always been the most level-headed one.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Fymk, as I've reiterated, do you feel the need to do another Hiroshima just to get your request for a disclaimer across?I'm sure that a few PMs and a simple, nice request would have done the trick.
Your constant usage of the word quack is highly debatable and fails to take into account the context of what is going on.If I give advice based on medical texts, I am quoting a reviewed document and I am just a conduit and a facilitator of information here, if I choose to say dispense, then I will have a hunt on my tail, so..why not just say it's a semantics issue and once and for all, put this damned issue to rest? There will be ignorant fools online or in the real world anyway.
However, a disclaimer will protect all parties and this I definitely agree with.
Well, I hope this issue is solved amicably.It's just jarring to see such a flamefest going on early in the morning.