Originally posted by Bangulzai:go5
Can also be ya4 (moth) as in bay4 ya4 (butterfly)
go5 in literally sense borrow from the north.
Originally posted by Chew Bakar:Can also be ya4 (moth) as in bay4 ya4 (butterfly)
go5 in literally sense borrow from the north.
Hope you all can explain pronunication in layman term, i not scholar of hokkien. Thanks
Originally posted by Chew Bakar:Can also be ya4 (moth) as in bay4 ya4 (butterfly)
go5 in literally sense borrow from the north.
you cannot split be ia because be ia is a è¯ç´ , right？
Originally posted by Fantagf:
Hope you all can explain pronunication in layman term, i not scholar of hokkien. Thanks
Pronounce as:
ya as in bay ya (butterfly)
goh as in goh lai goh kee (rolling)
Originally posted by Chew Bakar:Pronounce as:
ya as in bay ya (butterfly)
goh as in goh lai goh kee (rolling)
so it is goh ya or ya goh?
is it also called hor tip?
Originally posted by Bangulzai:you cannot split be ia because be ia is a è¯ç´ , right？
be ia is butterfly.
ia is moth.
Can't find the written form be ia or ia.
Originally posted by Chew Bakar:be ia is butterfly.
ia is moth.
Can't find the written form be ia or ia.
oic, thanks.
but funny, only one syllabus
Originally posted by Fantagf:
so it is goh ya or ya goh?is it also called hor tip?
moth is say as goh (literally from north) or ya as native Hokkien.
butterfly is say hor tiap (literally from north) or bay ya as native Hokkien.
hO5 tiap8 (or your hor tip?) is the literary Hokkien pronunciation of ��
in vernacular Hokkien vocabulary, "butterfly" is usually called be2 iah8, usually written by commoners as 美�, in actual fact, the etymology is from 尾翼, meaning "a long strip of wings"
we cannot split be2 iah8 into be2 and iah8 because be2 iah8 forms the smallest unit (è¯ç´ )
Originally posted by Chew Bakar:moth is say as goh (literally from north) or ya as native Hokkien.
butterfly is say hor tiap (literally from north) or bay ya as native Hokkien.
is the ya same tone as buay ya?
hokkien is tough
Originally posted by Bangulzai:hO5 tiap8 (or your hor tip?) is the literary Hokkien pronunciation of ��
in vernacular Hokkien vocabulary, "butterfly" is usually called be2 iah8, usually written by commoners as 美�, in actual fact, the etymology is from 尾翼, meaning "a long strip of wings"
we cannot split be2 iah8 into be2 and iah8 because be2 iah8 forms the smallest unit (è¯ç´ )
sorry wah liah bo kew your last statement.
Originally posted by Fantagf:
is the ya same tone as buay ya?hokkien is tough
Yup.
Originally posted by Bangulzai:hO5 tiap8 (or your hor tip?) is the literary Hokkien pronunciation of ��
in vernacular Hokkien vocabulary, "butterfly" is usually called be2 iah8, usually written by commoners as 美�, in actual fact, the etymology is from 尾翼, meaning "a long strip of wings"
we cannot split be2 iah8 into be2 and iah8 because be2 iah8 forms the smallest unit (è¯ç´ )
Dunno, what I learn from my grandma is that ia is moth and be ia is butterfly.
尾翼 could be an emulation?
Originally posted by Fantagf:sorry wah liah bo kew your last statement.
sorry
what i mean is, 尾翼 be2 iah8 is an exact Hokkien term for "butterfly"
in common speech, be2 iah8 is commonly abbreviated to 翼� iah8 a2
later on, iah8 a2 came to represent all sorts of insects similar to the butterfly, including "moth", so iah8 a2 is not an exact Hokkien term for "moth"
we have to borrow the literary Hokkien term 蛾 go5 when referring to a "moth"
Originally posted by Bangulzai:sorry
what i mean is, 尾翼 be2 iah8 is an exact Hokkien term for "butterfly"
in common speech, be2 iah8 is commonly abbreviated to 翼� iah8 a2
later on, iah8 a2 came to represent all sorts of insects similar to the butterfly, including "moth", so iah8 a2 is not an exact Hokkien term for "moth"
we have to borrow the literary Hokkien term 蛾 go5 when referring to a "moth"
That's all I know. Sorry.
Originally posted by Chew Bakar:That's all I know. Sorry.
Selamat tidur.
actually it may be different usage bah. different types of Hokkien. hey, Selamat Tidur and happy dreams
Hi!
A while ago, "尻�" was used for "kha-chng/kha-chuiN" (= "bum, bottom"). I have also seen it written "骹�". Is there any reason to prefer 尻 to 骹?
You are right.
尻� and 骹� are both commonly used.
尻，according to 《廣韻》 system, belongs to (溪)-onset (豪)-rime (å¹³)-tone (一ç‰)-rime grade (é–‹å�£éŸ»)-rime type, with a (å��切)-fanqie = 苦刀
骹，according to 《廣韻》 system, belongs to (溪)-onset (è‚´)-rime (å¹³)-tone (二ç‰)-rime grade (é–‹å�£éŸ»)-rime type, with a (å��切)-fanqie = å�£äº¤
Phonetically speaking, 骹 would be a better candidate because it would yield kha1 rather than 尻 which would yield kho1 in Contemporary Hokkien
â—Ž However, å°» can become the exception to the rule (i.e. evolve into kha1) only when we reflect on the case of æ—©, which also belongs to the (豪)-rime and (一ç‰)-rime grade, and evolved into ca2 in Contemporary Hokkien instead of the expected co2
â—Ž These unexpected forms sometimes may occur in descendant languages due to missing entries for alternate forms of pronunciation in the old rime books
Semantically speaking, 尻 would be a better candidate because it means "end of spine; buttocks; sacrum" ::reference http://chinese.dsturgeon.net/dictionary.pl?if=gb&id=31848:: In Modern Japanese, the native word for "buttocks" is �り (shiri) which utilizes either one of the two Chinese characters to represent its meaning, 尻 or 臀 respectively. It is apparent that the meaning of 臀 is also "buttocks" ::reference http://chinese.dsturgeon.net/dictionary.pl?if=en&char=臀::
Etymologically speaking, � symbolises the valley-like curvature of the buttocks, so 尻� and 骹� can be understood as "the valley-like curvature of the buttocks" and "the valley-like curvature between the thighs" respectively, depending on which one you like
Side note:
There are currently 4 languages of the é–© family that I know of that use k(h)a-å·� choice for "buttocks"
閩-閩�-�建閩�
kha1-chng1 (廈門 and 泉州 variety) / kha1-chuiN1 (漳州 variety)
閩-閩�-潮州閩�
kha1-chng1 (潮州 variety) / kha1-chɯng1 (汕é variety)
閩-閩�-海�閩�
ka1-sui1 (文昌 and 海� variety)
閩-莆仙
kɒ1-ɬuiN1 (仙游 variety) / kɒ1-ɬuai1 (莆田 variety)
Hi Bangulzai,
As usual, the breadth and depth of your knowledge truly amazes me.
Thank you for your detailed explanation, which I found very interesting. I found out more about 廣韻 (which I had never heard of before) by entering it into the search box for Chinese Wikipedia, and then reading the linked article in English Wikipedia. In this way, slowly, I am increasing my knowledge of Chinese history too, so that is pretty special.
Some of the characters in your explanation (just 4 characters in the examples at the very end) don't display on the PC I normally use. I will try on a friend's PC (which has lots of Chinese support) some time.
I'll be away from the net for quite a while in the coming period, but I'll be back :-).
Thanks again,
SimL
Hi Bangulzai,
Are you still reading here? I've been away for a while, but I'm back.
SimL
Hi too,
Still here
Oh wow! Great! I've transcribed more stuff, but this time it's funny Hokkien stuff from youtube. I was wondering if you'd be willing to help me with them again...?
In any case, I've made 3 youtube clips of my own, just the last 1-2 months. Michael is someone I met on the Minnan Forum, and he loves Hokkien in general and Penang Hokkien in particular.
I thought you might be interested to see them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBSD-jsHARA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uli5jUqIGu8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IF2o0cKHR10
Thanks SimL, interesting video.
Hi Chew Bakar,
You're welcome! Thanks for watching!