Hokkien A Post
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Hi SimL
I just borrowed a book from the library and decided to share it here:
Penang Hokkien Dialect
for Penangites & Tourists
~ Tan Choon Hoe
~ 陳春和Introduction
In the last ten years or so, there are emerging signs that Penang Hokkien dialect (PHD) is moving towards the direction of becoming an 'endangered' dialect. This could be due to the emergence of China as a global economic power and English as languages with economic value. More and more parents are conversing with their children in either Mandarin or English and Penang Hokkien dialect is only used in conversations between grandchildren and grandparents. Even then, there are times when the grandparents themselves would have to adapt to Mandarin or English to ensure the younger ones understand them!
The signs are evident when I speak to many children who are losing their grasp on the dialect. Some of them do not know simple Hokkien words, and there are others who speak with a noticeable accent, oblivious to the fact that PHD is indeed their parents mother tongue.
Penangites should play their role in preserving PHD which is a beautiful part of Penang's rich heritage, before the PHD path is smoothed out forever! Both Raymond Kwok and Johny Chee are doing a good job by writing a few books on PHD, also not forgetting John Ong - the PHD pioneer podcaster, who is doing his part from many miles away in the USA to keep the dialect alive. Hopefully, the virtual PHD community on the internet could lead to something even better, maybe small but real PHD-speaking communities in foreign lands! Penangites living abroad would appreciate this.
This book is written to complement the basic lessons and vocabulary found in my first book, Learn to Speak...Penang Hokkien Dialect. Literal translations of PHD words are included in this book to help the readers get a better idea of how certain words or sayings came about. I had a lot of fun 'dissecting' the PHD words, resulting in my 'mangling up' the English language! However, the literal translation is not possible for every word or phrase as some words and phrases just don't 'sync' when translated into English.
So, what is Penang Hokkien dialect?
Penang Hokkien dialect is the lingua franca of Penang, a shared oral language among the locals of various races and ethnicity whose main languages are varied. PHD is not 100 percent Hokkien dialect but a rather 'colourful cocktail' of languages and dialects with Hokkien as the main ingredient (because of the large Hokkien community in Penang). You can code-switch your conversation from Hokkien to English, Malay, Mandarin or even a dash of Cantonese and revert to Hokkien, illustrating its versatility.
How much of each 'ingredient' do you need to get that familiar taste of the 'PHD cocktail'?
Well, Hokkien, without doubt, is definitely the main ingredient here, at least about 80 percent content...plus how much of English, Malay or Mandarin to sprinkle on would depend on the company you have at a particular time. There are no hard and fast rules and you can throw the tenses out the window when it comes to Hokkien.
'Ingredients' of the 'PHD cocktail':
'Pure Hokkien' as spoken by the so-called 'pure Chinese' who are mostly Mandarin-educated. This group has more Hokkien vocabulary at their disposal because they can relate and trace the source of the Hokkien words to the Mandarin language.
'Adulterated Hokkien' as spoken by the 'acculturated Chinese' who are mostly 'banana man' i.e., English-educated Chinese who are yellow (Chinese) on the outside and white (English) on the inside. Unlike the Mandarin-educated group, they have less Hokkien vocabulary at their disposal mainly because they are unable to relate and trace the source of the Hokkien words to the Mandarin language. Sometimes, their pronunciation of the Hokkien words may not be 100 percent perfect and thus 'corrupting' some Hokkien words, resulting in 'Adulterated Hokkien'.
Standard English
Manglish (English as spoken by Malaysians, including 'mangled' English)
Standard Bahasa Malaysia
Bazaar Malay (bahasa pasar - 'market Malay')
Mandarin
So you have it... the 'colourful cocktail' known as Penang Hokkien dialect, which is quite different from 'Singapore Sling'.
The common and not so common slang words, phrases, sayings, riddles, rhymes and ditties in this book would help both the uninitiated and the intrepid explorer of the dialect to appreciate the dialect more, and also to get better aquainted with the local Chinese community while picking up liberal doses of PHD. There are also some conversational pieces from PHD lessons conducted by the author at a few private hospitals. In fact, this book is a bit of a 'cocktail serving' by itself. I hope you would enjoy learning PHD as much as I have enjoyed writing it for you.
Tan Choon Hoe
1 JANUARY 2008The Accidental Author...
from a little valley called
Hye Keat Estate:Tan Choon Hoe was born, bred and educated in Penang. He grew up in a little valley called Hye Keat Estate, situated at the foot of Penang Hill, which is just a few hundred metres away from the famous Kek Lok Si Temple.
Hye Keat Estate was a notorious place in the 1970s and is known among locals as 'Ang Kong Tay' which means 'The Land of Deities' becuase of the many temples, shrines and *'ang kong keng' ('medium' houses) found within the area. Some of its inhabitants have peculiar nicknames, e.g., a guy with a dark complexion is called Pek Pek (White White) and a slim lady nicknamed Ah Enee (Round). Then, there is a petite lady known as Too Kneah (Piglet), another lady was 'High Tay Ee' (Underwater Auntie) and yet another was called 'Kay Kneah Ee' (Chick Auntie), among others. Unknown to many, Hye Keat Estate was at one time home to three well-known personalities - Mr Richard Hoon, a famous musician and composer during the 1960s and 1970s and Datuk Lim Bian Yam, the internationally acclaimed floral art maestro who is also an author and a certified international instructor of chefs. Datuk Lim Bian Yam is honoured as one of the Living Heritage Treasures by Penang Heritage Trust. Then, there is also Mr Reggie Lee, a famous cartoonist with a keen eye for depicting current issues with a local flair. Hye Keat Estate was also one of the favourite stops for the wandering troubadour of the 1950s and 1960s who was popularly known as Tan Tong Tong. He would ply his trade there at least a few times a month and was very popular with the kampung folks, especially the children who loved his poems and songs.
Choon Hoe's childhood days were during the 'Twilight Zone' years. Apart from 'Twilight Zone', he also enjoyed watching 'Pontianak' and Tan Sri P. Ramlee's movies and can easily identify with a lot of scenes in LAT's 'Kampung Boy'. This kampung guy never dreamt of writing books. It all started after a chance encounter with a foreigner that struck him with the idea to come up with a guidebook to Penang Hokkien dialect. He has, since then written a Malay version as well - Mai Belajar Bertutur...Loghat Hokkien Pulau Pinang and also pioneered PHD classes for corporate sectors. This includes hospitals which saw the need to cross boundaries and explore the human side of medicine (the human factor), thus improving communication between caregivers and patients - resulting in the well-being of their patients.
Remember, a dialect learnt is a dialect gained.
* 'ang kong keng' ('medium' houses) - Residential houses which double up as places of worship during the birthdays of Chinese deities. From time to time, people from near and far (sometimes, from overseas as well!) would fix appointments to consult the mediums ('kee tong' in PHD) who would get into a trance and supposedly act as a go-between with the spiritual world.
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Hi Bangulzai,
Thanks for making the effort to type in the information about this book and its author.
I find the book a little bit disappointing, to be honest. I wrote a review of it here: http://www.chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3269.
The new book by De Gijzel is also interesting to look at.
http://www.arecabooks.com/webpages/books17.html
(My apologies if this link has already been posted here.)
I haven't got hold of a copy yet, but if I understand correctly, it too doesn't do tones. I am actually quite sympathetic towards people who don't do tones - even with my training in linguistics, it took me 1-2 years to really master Hokkien tones, so I don't blame laypeople for finding it "too complicated". Nevertheless, I'm firmly convinced that no person can consider themselves a serious student of Hokkien if they haven't mastered the tone conventions. There are too many issues with tone sandhi (correct usage of characters, whether two syllables are related, etc) which cannot be understood without mastering the tones.
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The first link does not work again. Please advice keywords from the thread content so that I can search by myself from the "search" box.
Getting one more book is good. Whether there are tones or whether the transliteration is accurate or not, it is an added incentive. We can still pick up new and unknown stuffs from these books.
Most laypeople around here do not know Dialectal Tone Conventions because they did not learn it at school (in Singapore, the kindergarten / primary / secondary / pre-university level curriculum only teaches British English, Chinese Mandarin, Bahasa Melayu, Tamil).
People here who have a good grasp on phonetics / phonology / morphophonology most probably either learnt it on their own, or either perhaps took up linguistic related courses in the University.
Basically, as long as one maintains his/her set of linguistic convention and applies them consistently, I can figure it out in a short time and communicates back with that person using the same set of linguistic rules albeit with minor modifications when I see it fits better (with my own justification).
I have the most headache with people who comes out with inconsistent spelling of their own here and there, for example:
看: typing as kwa here, sometimes type kua there, sometimes type khuah
It's these kind of people whom can't justify why they use certain spelling here and certain spelling there. It's just random and it is only useful to people who already knows the language.
Before having the chance to communicate with you here, I am more used to the Tone Contour Convention (äº”åº¦éŸ³é˜¶æ ‡è°ƒ) and the corresponding Tonal Numberings (in red) for Hokkien
阴平 1 44 → 22 (in Spore, some variations sandhied to 33)
阳平 2 24 → 22 (in Spore, some variations sandhied to 21)
阴上 3 53 → 44 (in Spore, some variations sandhied to 24)
阴去 4 21 → 53
阳去 5 22 (in Spore, some people 阳去 merged with 阴去 to become 21) → 21
阴入 6 21 → 4 (in Spore, some variations sandhied to 53)
阳入 7 4 → 21 -
Hi Bangulzai,
I'm sorry that my links keep not working. No idea why! I test them before posting and they work, and then when posted, they don't work.
Anyway, here are the steps:
1. http://www.chineselanguage.org/forums
2. Choose "Hokkien (Minnan) language forum"
3. Go to Page 3 (a list of pages in top right corner)
4. Choose "English - Penang Hokkien Dictionary?" (by martynemh 10 Mar 2007)
5. My review is the 4th reply to the thread.
I agree with you totally. I don't mind what spelling someone uses, but consistency is the important thing. If they are not consistent, then you can't really tell what they really mean to say.
I don't say it so explicitly in my review, but consistency is really not one of the strong points in this book.
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I have read your review. You have presented a very objective view. And quite scholarly too.
I wonder if Tan Choon Hoe may jump up from his chair if he sees this review 
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Hi Bangulzai,
Thank you for the positive feedback on the review. I tried to be balanced, praising the book for taking the initiative to describe and teach Penang Hokkien to others, but also noting the points which I didn't think were so positive. I think the things which disappoint me most are: 1) inconsistency for the -h, 2) lack of marking of nasalization for syllables not starting with a consonant, 3) the "English" vowels, particularly the abominable "I" for "ai".
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Well, you can say he is really inconsistent, but the book is upfront to admit its inconsistency (mentioned: "the author has opted for a different style", "So, use whichever suits you best; as long as you get the sound"). Take a look at the Pronunciation page:
On Pronunciation
Unline the common Wade-Giles or the Pinyin System of Romanization, the author has opted for a different style.
The sounds of the PHD words are formulated by using the sounds of common Chinese surnames or names, letters from the English Alphabet (as how you would read the letters) and simple words and syllables from both the English language and Bahasa Malaysia. Nasal sounds are indicated by the letter 'n' which is usually slotted in as the second or third letter in a word which sounds nasal.
The few exceptions are words like 'eah', 'oowa', 'eow' and 'ia'. This is because if the letter 'n' was slotted in as the second or third letter, it may lead to mispronunciation, especially for the few words mentioned. However, it would be made known to the reader whether such words should sound nasal. Stronger 'h' sounds are indicated with a double 'hh'. Sounds of letters at the end of words are weak and need not be stressed; e.g. 'bark' in which the sound of 'k' is close to non-existent. 's' is not needed to indicate plural. Words like 'thhat', 'thhan' and 'tan' are to be pronounced using the Malay sound for 'a' while 'sung' and 'hung' are to be read as the past participle of 'sing' and 'hang' respectively. 'Bun' and 'pun' are to be read as English words.
There is also no standardised Romanisation; you can always use the way of pronunciation which appeals most to you. For example, the sound of 'C' can be written as 'C', 'see', 'seee', 'si' or even 'ci'! The sound of 'eye' can thus be written using the word 'eye' or the letter 'i'. Likewise, the sound of 'koay' can be written as 'koay' which is a common Chinese surname, 'kuih' (a Bahasa Malaysia word) or as 'kuey'. An Englishman may also prefer to use the English word 'ton' in place of 'tan' (a common Chinese surname which a local can easily relate to). So, use whichever suits you best; as long as you get the sound. The sounds of PHD words are quite simple and (except for the nasal sound) one does not need to excel in 'tongue gymnastics' to learn the dialect. However, do not worry about tones (Penang Bridge wasn't built in a day)... go sit at the coffeeshops, waiting areas in banks and hospitals; visit the hawker stalls, the markets and the pasar malam (night markets) and mingle with the crowd - sharpen your listening skills and practise, practise, practise because practice makes perfect!
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Hi all,
This is a song I’ve known since I was a little boy. I only know this first verse, but apparently, there are many more verses, and the verses get a bit “indecent” as the song progresses (“indecent” by the standards of the early and mid 20th century - by today’s standards probably quite mild).
The whole of my family always believed that my eldest uncle knew all the verses, but when I finally asked him as an adult, he only knew one other verse. I posted this on the Minnan Forum a number of years ago, but nobody there knew the song.
This is the first verse:
ci ciah e hue-cun [(There once was) a steam<?>-ship]
kiaN-khi hok-kien [Sailing to Fujian (Province)]
kiaN-kau puaN-hai [(When it reached) halfway in the sea]
chut O-ien [It emitted black smoke]
kha sui e ca-bO [Prettier girls]
gua a bo-gien [I don’t desire]
ciah-chai ka liam-keng [(By) eating vegetarian food and chanting sutras]
khi seng thien [(I will) ascend to heaven]
The characters were supplied to me from various sources years ago. I’m posting them exactly as I got them, although I now know a lot more about Hokkien, and would use different characters. For example, Bangulzai has explained about 蜀 for “chit8”, and I now know that “cha-bO” is commonly written 查æŸ�. Nevertheless, I post with the original characters, because people might like to comment on their suitability or unsuitability. Writing å…® for the possessive particle “e5” is something I’ve seen elsewhere.
禃隻兮�船
行去�建
行��海
��煙
åŠ å«·å…®æŸ¥å««
我也無æ…
食�暨念經
去�天
The additional verse which my uncle remembers goes like this. He sang it with “li” instead of “lu” for “you”, even though he is also a Penang Hokkien speaker, probably because that was how he learnt it:
ci chiu li gia khi [(With) your hand you lift up]
ang-mO hun [A (Western) cigarette]
ci kha li kha-loh [(With) one foot your foot descends]
sam-pan cun [(Onto) a sampan]
mui ta li sEN sui [This pretty girl]
khuaN li bo hun [Brother, you have not chance]
m-sai ti gong-kha [Don’t be foolish]
ciap-ciap sun [(And) sniff around her]
The translation of the last 4 lines is a very free / idiomatic translation, because we’re not very sure of the meaning of the individual words. I think “khuaN li bo hun” is something like “looks at you without respect” i.e. “looks right through you”, “doesn’t see you at all”. My uncle tells me that “gong-kha” is literally “stupid feet”, but I’m personally not familiar with this expression.
If any readers know the other verses (and/or would like to render this verse into characters, and/or would like to give a literal translation of the verse), then I’d be very grateful!
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Hi Bangulzai,
Oh, I must have missed that part of the intro! Thanks! Ok, well, if it pleases him to do it, then fine, but I personally would prefer consistency...
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PS:
Some of these characters are very obscure indeed. I just checked on www.internationalscientific.org, and 禃, æ¾�, å«·, å««, æ… are known characters, but don't have any meanings or pronunciations listed.It isn't clear to me for example why one should use æ¾� rather than 出.
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i never heard of this and upon checking my ã€Šæ–°åŠ å�¡é—½å�—è¯�ä¿—è¯æŒè°£é€‰ã€‹ doesn't include that too
i will list out the possible characters (that i know of at this point of time) for each syllable, the 1st of each listed being my more preferred choice separated by commas with the subsequent choices, although i do sometimes use them interchangeably. slashes separates simplified characters/non-simplified characters
<ci2=�(this)?,cit4=�(this)?,cit8=蜀,一,禃(one)?> <隻,�> <其,个/個,兮,的> <�> <船>
<行> <去> <�> <建>
<行> <�> <�> <海>
<cut=?,chut4=出(emit)?,chu7=�(emit)?> <乌/�> <烟/煙 ><较/較> <水> <其,个/個,兮,的> <查> <�,�>
<我> <也> <æ— /ç„¡> <æ…/憖>
<食> <�> <�,甲> <念> <�/經/経>
<去> <å�‡/昇> <天><ci2=å�ª(this)?,cit4=å�³(this)?,cit8=蜀,一,禃(one)?> <手> <æ±�> <æ�,[扌+举]/[扌+擧]/[扌+舉]> <èµ·>
<红/紅> <毛> <薰>
<ci2=�(this)?,cit4=�(this)?,cit8=蜀,一,禃(one)?> <骹> <�> <骹> <�>
<舢,三> <�> <船><mui=?> <ta=?> <�> <生> <水>
<看> <æ±�> <æ— /ç„¡> <份>
<呒/嘸,呣,伓> <使> <tiN3=[韦+登]/[韋+登](pretend)?,ti7=伫/佇/竚,�(at)?,tih8=挃(want)?> <戆> <kha=?>
<�> <�> <sun5=驯/馴(calm/tame)?>some explanations:
æ— ä»½/無份 bo5-hun7 (used in the phrase æœ‰ç¼˜æ— ä»½/有緣無份)
呒使/嘸使,呣使,伓使 m7-sai2 = no need
if ti = tiN3, then tiN3-gong7-(kha?) = pretencious / act innocent
�� ciap8-ciap8 = always
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Hi Bangulzai,
Thanks for the characters. Pity you didn't know the song, but thanks also for checking in your book.
Sad that nobody else knows this song. I particularly like your explanation of "tiN3-gong7". Apparently "gong-kha" is not known to you as a combination either. Interestingly, in PgHk I have "tEN2-gong7", "tEN1(sandhi-tone)-gong7" (= "to pretend to not know what's going on"). I think that your "tiN3" and my "tEN2" might be the same word. I also have a low-flattish "tEN" (perhaps 22 or 21), meaning "to press".
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Hi SimL
In the book "Penang Hokkien Dialect for Penangites & Tourists" (which I just found out that it is a different book from the one you wrote the review on - "Learn To Speak Penang Hokkien Dialect"), a whole chapter (lesson 3) is dedicated to Penang Hokkien "Rhymes and Ditties". I'll post some excerpts below:
Tua pooi - Fatty
Tua pooi,
tua log log,
Pang sai,
loh chua log,
Chua log,
tay bay leow,
Tua pooi,
chiak ka leow.Translation:
Fatty, fatty
boom boom,
Shitting into a
paper bag,
Paper bag
overflows with shit,
Fatty
eats all the shit. -
Hi Bangulzai,
Hahahaha! One thing about Hokkiens is that they're not as embarassed by bodily functions as many other people. My German friend was laughing because he was staying with a Hokkien friend of his (in Malaysia), and the Hokkien friend's mother shouted from upstairs: "X ti pang sai!". He was amazed because he said that no German mother would shout from upstairs that their son was "having a shit". They would use some euphemism, like "he's taking a big one" (or whatever, I can't remember the correct German expression).
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yes, [韋+登]戆 tiN3-gong7 in Amoy is tEN3-gong7 in ChiangChiu according to my dictionary. "to press" uses the same character [韋+登]
I post some excerpts from relating to "Pang sai" from ã€Šæ–°åŠ å�¡é—½å�—è¯�ä¿—è¯æŒè°£é€‰ã€‹too:
乞食
乞食，乞食，
é¸¡ä»”ä¼“é€šæŽ ã€‚
大å�ªæ”¾å±Žäº’ä½ é£Ÿï¼Œ
人情且相寄，
å…�ä½ å…±é˜®è¯´é�“谢。
Khit4 Ciah8
khit4 ciah8, khit4 ciah8
kue1 ia2 m7 thang1 liah8
tua7 ciah4 pang3 sai2 hO7 li2 ciah8
lin5 cing5 ciaN2 sio1 kia3
bian2 li2 kang7 gun2 seh4 to1 sia7
Beggar
beggar, beggar
do not catch the chicks
wait till they grown up into chickens & shit for you to eat
i rather owe you some favour
than needing you to thank me -
si kue neng to bo, pang kue sai to u.
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means 生鸡å�µè‘—æ— ï¼Œæ”¾é¸¡å±Žè‘—æœ‰ rite?
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Yup. Meaning quite straight forward. A courteous remark by guest to a good host.
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A courteous remark by guest? Was it sacarsm?
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Originally posted by Bangulzai:
A courteous remark by guest? Was it sacarsm?
Not really. One feel bad to disturb the host for their unexpected long stay will say that.
But if the host say that, the meaning is reversed.
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Hi Chew Bakar,
Thanks for the explanation. Like Bangulzai, I was also a bit puzzled by the expression, but I think I now understand why it is used. Very nice one. Again, it illustrates that Hokkien speakers are not particularly embarassed about "sh*t". I can't imagine a guest saying that to a host in English :-).
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Originally posted by SimL:
Hi Chew Bakar,
Thanks for the explanation. Like Bangulzai, I was also a bit puzzled by the expression, but I think I now understand why it is used. Very nice one. Again, it illustrates that Hokkien speakers are not particularly embarassed about "sh*t". I can't imagine a guest saying that to a host in English :-).
Many earlier words, idioms and phrases are lost.
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i see! now i realized the guest was humbly demeaning oneself for being a 長尻�. at first i tot the guest was saying that the host is such a person as described.
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Originally posted by Bangulzai:
i see! now i realized the guest was humbly demeaning oneself for being a 長尻�. at first i tot the guest was saying that the host is such a person as described.
Yup.
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Now a cheeky prose by kids back in the early days
niau bi niau pi-pa
pang sai kor bang ta
pak kui kee?
pak sar kee
chi ki pa lo
chi ki pa kor
chi ki pa lau ni por.