Hokkien A Post
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Originally posted by Chew Bakar:
I have been pondering:
“thai2-ko1”: “leprosy” is æ¹æº”.
æ¹ is rotten
溔 is puss
your hypothesis for æ¹ is acceptable because "t" and "th" has the same articulatory position as well as having the same tone of 阴上
but it is much more difficult to reconciliate 溔 with ko1, because the rhyme and tone category which it belongs to is 上声 with a fan-qie 以沼 which is 三ç‰éŸµ. "以" is not able to yield initial consonant "k" under ordinary circumstances and "o" in Modern Hokkien is ordinarily 一ç‰éŸµ, furthermore ko1 is 平声. And the meaning of 溔 is not puss.
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溔 is murky water or watery discharge from body. So I think of this possibility.
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i oso don't think 溔 is murky water or watery discharge from body. may i know where you get that meaning from? i haven't encountered that in my resources and i can't google for that meaning as well
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Originally posted by Bangulzai:
i oso don't think 溔 is murky water or watery discharge from body. may i know where you get that meaning from? i haven't encountered that in my resources and i can't google for that meaning as well
I remember from some old Chinese medicine books. 溔 is 文言 for murky watery discharge.
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let's say the meaning of 溔 is indeed used in this sense, i will only recognise æ¹æº” as a half-etymological half-semantical compound
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Originally posted by Bangulzai:
let's say the meaning of 溔 is indeed used in this sense, i will only recognise æ¹æº” as a half-etymological half-semantical compound
That's all I know. Can't help much with my limited knowledge.
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The more you should help. You will never believe you have "unlimited knowledge" until you fully participate in such discussions. See you often.
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Originally posted by Bangulzai:
The more you should help. You will never believe you have "unlimited knowledge" until you fully participate in such discussions. See you often.
Cannot be unlimited lah. I study Chinese in private as a kid in WWII, after war no more liao. Mostly forgotten.
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"unlimited knowledge" as in endless creativity in linking things together resulting in purposeful discussion, such as your æ¹æº” or 蹉跎 which can never occur to me
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Originally posted by Bangulzai:
"unlimited knowledge" as in endless creativity in linking things together resulting in purposeful discussion, such as your æ¹æº” or 蹉跎 which can never occur to me
Thank you. You're very kind.
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Hi Bangulzai, Chew Bakar, Ahwhyn,
I really enjoy all your contributions and discussions, so please keep them coming! The "sayings" which Ahwhyn posted I find very interesting.
I've been away from the net for 4 days, and just came on again.
Bangulzai: thanks for the é 蜀個是與伊信心å°�ä½›,法,僧. It's brilliant!
. As usual, I will think about all these answers, and post any additional questions which arise.I'll also post the last lot of questions some time, but I'm very busy this whole week, so it might not get done until next week.
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From Bangulzai:
yup
i found the definition for li7-por7-chit4
二æ¥ä¸ƒ = æŸ�项知识或技术虽ä¸�足，但还是有点本事，多少å�¯ä»¥åº”付点局é�¢ã€‚
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Originally posted by Chew Bakar:
From Bangulzai:
yup
i found the definition for li7-por7-chit4
二æ¥ä¸ƒ = æŸ�项知识或技术虽ä¸�足，但还是有点本事，多少å�¯ä»¥åº”付点局é�¢ã€‚
Do you think bad hokkien when spoken so openly in Singapore sounds too vulgar? For most people it is OK but why people here get angry when I type in English
'You do wat cock?'
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Originally posted by Short Ninja:
Do you think bad hokkien when spoken so openly in Singapore sounds too vulgar? For most people it is OK but why people here get angry when I type in English
'You do wat cock?'
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Hi Bangulzai,
Here are the last few questions (I think/hope!). If there are any more, they will just be very minor ones, but the vast majority of problems relating to this one lecture (52 minutes long) have now been solved.
I never like to impose on other people’s time to do things which I could do myself, so I apologize for asking about how to write the characters for some of the words below (and also in the past), when I could look them up in dictionaries. The reason is that I have only two dictionaries at the moment: 1) Douglas and Barclay, and 2) æž—å®�å�¿’s é—½å�—方言与å�¤æ±‰è¯å�Œæº�è¯�å…¸, so if I can’t find them there, I can’t look any further. I’m just about to buy some more Hokkien dictionaries, but they will still take some time to arrive. Once they arrive, if I start work on another Buddhist lecture, hopefully I won’t need to ask so often about how to write some characters.
Thanks in advance.
#) How does one write “kha” (= the comparative particle) in characters? As in “kha tua” (= “bigger”), “kha se” (= “smaller”).
#) PgHk has “lang2” (= “we/us”) as the 1st person plural pronoun. I don’t think there is a distinction between “inclusive we” and “exclusive we” in PgHk. Do you think PgHk “lang2” should be written with å’± or 阮 (or neither)?
#) PgHk has “ha(h)4-ku2” X?ä¹… “formerly, in the old days”, which Douglas says is pronounced “hiah4-ku2” X?ä¹… in most varieties. How does one write “h(i)ah4” in characters?
#) “e-hiau cun” and “bo5 siong5” = 無祥?
“thiN e lang5 lai thiaN-tioh, i-lang ka e e-hiau cun a. in-ui i thiaN-tioh hut kong ka-liau bo siong.”
= “[When the] heavenly beings came and heard [that they would eventually die], they started to shiver. Because they heard the Buddha say [that] everything <would turn out badly>.”
This is a passage where the speaker explains that heavenly beings can live for several million years, and that their bodies look very young, even when they are millions of years old. For this reason (the speaker says), these heavenly beings didn’t realise that they would ever die. Then they heard what the Buddha said, and they were afraid.
1) “e-hiau cun”. This is literally “knew how to shiver/tremble”, but that doesn’t work in English. Is “started to shiver/tremble” ok? Is 戰 the correct character for “cun3”?
2) “bo-siong”. In Barclay, I can only find (p10 and p204) “cin1 put4-siong5” = “very unlucky, very ill-omened”. My guess is that “put4-siong5” is ä¸�祥, and that the speaker’s “bo-siong” is just a colloquial variant 無祥. Is that correct? If so, then there is the problem of rendering that into English. My reasoning is that if something is “unlucky or ill-omened”, then it will “turn out badly” (i.e. that they would all die), so that is why I’ve translated it that way. What is your opinion?
#) “ien5-tau5”: ç·£<X>? = “handsome, good-looking” (for men)
What is the character for “tau5”.
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i have that same book as you "é—½å�—方言与å�¤æ±‰è¯å�Œæº�è¯�å…¸". if you noticed i have always tried to maintain "one" cit8 to be written as 蜀 and "one" it4 to be written as 一, you can flip to the book Page 340, æž—å®�å�¿ offers the character 禃 for cit8 instead. As far as Minnan Hokkien dialects are concerned, 禃 fits the pronunciation. But if I am to broaden my perspective to included more Min dialects, 禃 is constrained only to Minnan Hokkien whereas 蜀 continues to correlates to all the respective Min pronunciations (which includes Minnan Hokkien's 漳州, 泉州, 厦门, Minnan Teochew's 潮州, 汕头, Minnan Hainanese's 文昌, æµ·å�£, Minzhong's 莆田, 仙游, Mindong's ç¦�å·ž, ç¦�清). Furthermore, the etymology for 蜀 sounds more probable at this point of time than for æž—å®�å�¿'s choice of 禃.That means, 蜀 is more universal as compared to 禃 and hence should be used until proven otherwise. The point is: Even we may have the linguistic tools at hand, sometimes we still have to choose the best answer among those we have, and I also keep changing my choice of characters along the way when I encounter a better/more probable one.
anyway i am very happy to have seen your postings, as this is the very 1st chance that i am exposed to Penang Hokkien. through the communicating with you, i have become now a more informed person on Penang Hokkien, and i welcome you to continue keep them coming.
regarding kha3 (khah4) (= the comparative particle), the character is 较 / 較
regarding lang2, in Singapore Hokkien we have lan2. We have a distinction between "inclusive we" 咱 lan2 / 咱侬 lan2-nang5 and "exclusive we" 阮 guan2 / 阮 gun2 / 我侬 gua2-nang5 / 阮侬 guan2-nang5 / 阮侬 gun2-nang5 in Singapore Hokkien. Both characters are borrowed purely for sound correspondence, and I think even though Penang Hokkien does not distinguish between the two, it is still better to use the respective one so that a reader can pronounce the correct form
regarding h(i)ah4, the character 赫 is used, purely for sound correspondence. 则 / 則 ciah4 is the antonym of 赫 hiah4
regarding e7-hiau2-cun3, the speaker's usage of 解晓 e7-hiau2 corresponds to 解 e7. i was just wondering why was there an additional e in front of e-hiau. The character for cun3 is 颤 / 顫 = shiver
regarding bo5-siong5, it is the Buddhist terminology æ— å¸¸ / 無常 = impermanence. "Because they heard the Buddha say [that] everything is impermanent"
regarding ien5-tau5, the characters are 缘投 / 緣投
regarding the Minnan-English Dictionary by Li Rulong, Li Zhuqing that you are going to order, I think 184 pages is not going to have a lot of stuffs. But I still think you should get one, because many different dictionaries compliment each other in their content, and you should give a go at it
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Hi Bangulzai,
Once again, I'm bowled over by the quality and depth of your answers. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
>> regarding e7-hiau2-cun3, the speaker's usage of 解晓
>> e7-hiau2 corresponds to 解 e7. i was just wondering
>> why was there an additional e in front of e-hiau. The
>> character for cun3 is 颤 / 顫 = shiver
I can understand why you'd be puzzled by it. I think it has to be seen in the context of the full sentence: i-lang ka e e-hiau cun a. This "ka e" is perhaps a uniquely PgHk "particle" for expressing intensity. For example: "i ka e hoooooo cit kue" (= "it's soooooo good"), or "i ka e gong nia" (= "he's just *so* stupid").
As usual, everything you say is great, but I want to thank you particularly for putting me on the right track with æ— å¸¸ / 無常 = impermanence.
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hee i dunno about ka e
maybe see whether Chew Bakar who is also Singaporean has ka e in his vocab or not
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Originally posted by Bangulzai:
hee i dunno about ka e
maybe see whether Chew Bakar who is also Singaporean has ka e in his vocab or not
Not sure could be "will be" from chuanchiu "ka er"?
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Hi Bangulzai and Chew Bakar,
I understand your doubts. If either of you ever meet a PgHk speaker, perhaps you could ask them to say it for you, and if the speaker knows Mandarin and characters, perhaps you could ask their opinion. For the moment, I can just add that it sounds like "ka1(sandhi-tone)-e3/7" to me. Later, when I post the lecture with transcriptions on the web, you'll be able to listen to that particular spot where it's said.
SimL
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Hi Ahwhyn,
I hope you’re still following this thread.
>> “chao mi lang kway ang” literally “grass hopper disturbs rooster”
My favourite Chinese(Mandarin)-English dictionary is å¤–ç ”ç¤¾ - 汉英è¯�å…¸ (Foreign Language Teaching and Research Press - A Chinese-English Dictionary (Revised Edition)). In it, I found:
螳螂 “mantis”.
螳螂当车 “a mantis trying to obstruct a chariot - overrate oneself and try to hold back an overwhelmingly superior force”
This seems related to the Hokkien expression you posted. Undoubted, many of the Forum members knowledgable in Mandarin already know this expression...
Regards,
SimL
PS. In English (and Chinese), a (praying) mantis and a grasshopper aren’t considered very similar, but they are in Dutch. A grasshopper is a “sprinkhaan” (literally, “jump” + “cockerel” (though I’m not sure if “haan” = “cockerel” is the same “haan” as in “sprinkhaan” - it could be folk etymology)), and a praying mantis is a “bidsprinkhaan” (literally: “pray” + “grasshopper”).
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Drat! Managed to lose another post...
Well, perhaps it's somewhere around. Fortunately, I have the original in a separate document, which I'll now repost.
What are the characters for “hiet4-kak8”: “to throw away, discard as rubbish”?
Douglas p132/p192 “to throw away / to throw away”; “pang3-hiet4-kak8” Douglas p360/p132/p192 “to throw away / to throw away / to throw away”.
In PgHk we say “ha(k)4-kak8”, which Douglas also lists (p116 “pang3-hak4-kak8” = “pang3-hiet4-kak8”). My Amoy-speaking grandmother's equivalent of this was "kok-sak".
Perhaps many people in Penang don’t realise that the “hak” in “hak-kak” is related to “hiet”. I only knew “hiet4” as “to litter, make a mess, drop or scatter stuff”, as in “hiet ka kui si ke” = “scatter [clothes or paper etc] all over the place”. My mother used to describe untidy people with the phrase “i cin-nia gau hiet” (literally “he’s very clever at scattering”).
What are the characters for “kui3/7(sandhi-tone)-si1(sandhi-tone)-ke3/7”? The middle syllable is probably æ», but the first and third syllables I have no idea. I think it’s quite a common (but perhaps a bit coarse) expression in PgHk. If one has looked everywhere for something one can’t find, one could say “wa chue ka kui si ke, pun si chue bo” (= “I searched everywhere, but still couldn’t find [it]”). “ka” is PgHk for “kau” (= “until”).
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regarding hiet4-kak8, the characters are [扌+ç©´]æ�”. regarding kok8-sak4, the characters are 掴速 / 摑速. my dictionary gives ChiangChiu kak8 for Amoy/ChuanChiu kok8 too. Therefore I believe both æ�” and 掴 / æ‘‘ should probably from the same source. Minnan hiet4 (throw) has cognate in Hakka e.g Moiyen Hakka fit4 (throw). Minnan kok8/kak8 (throw) has cognate in Mindong e.g Hokchiu kœh8 (throw)
regarding Singapore Hokkien hiet4-kau3-kui2-si3-kue3 (scatter all over the place), it is [扌+ç©´]é�˜è§„四界 / [扌+ç©´]é�˜è¦�四界. regarding Singapore Hokkien i1-cin1-ciaN3-gau2-hiet4 (he's very good at scattering), it is 伊真æ£[topæ•–+bottom力][扌+ç©´]. Singaporean Hokkien also has kau3 ~ ka3 alternations. Singaporean/Amoy/ChuanChiu si3-kue3 corresponds to your Penang/ChiangChiu si-ke (tones unsure). 四界 si3-kue3 when written literally means "all over the 4 corners", but I believe it's real etymology is 世界 which means "the universe / the world" because 世 has both se3 and si3 pronunciations. 世界's meaning should have been idiomized in Hokkien to mean "all corners"
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螳螂当车 “a mantis trying to obstruct a chariot - overrate oneself and try to hold back an overwhelmingly superior force”.
螳螂当俥 this is a northern proverb, also use to expain a chess move of using a pawn to block the chariot before they cross the river.
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Hi Bangulzai,
I've been off the net for a couple of days. Thanks for your latest inputs. Shows how wrong I was, about the "si" in "kui si ke" :-).
Only one or two final questions, which I hope to post in the next few days. Either that, or I'll write up the whole lot of transcriptions and translations, and leave the outstanding questions in red there, and you can pick up any of the ones which interest you, when I post the whole lot on a friend's website.
I'm really glad you enjoyed getting an insight into Penang Hokkien. These lectures are marvellous, because the speaker speaks clearly, and uses quite sophisticated vocabulary (for non-Buddhist-specific terms too), so I can learn a lot.
Thanks again,
SimL