Hokkien A Post
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Originally posted by Bangulzai:
Fantagf:
chicken is "kway" if coming from a Amoy Hokkien or ChuanChiu Hokkien person's mouth
chicken is "kay" if coming from a ChiangChiu Hokkien person's mouth
me say kway too
Amoy Hokkien or ChuanChiu Hokkien near tong an I supposemy root is tong an, same as tan kah kee.
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Fantagf:
yes, Tong An Hokkien is classified under "Amoy Hokkien"
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Dear Bangulzai
the "龟 kway" in "kway kong" with the sinister meaning of a pimp is different from the "鸡 kway" in "kong kway" or "kway kong" with the meaning of the chicken.
That's why I put in as afflicted by Cantonese. We are a mixed dialect group here so best avoid such words.
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Hi Bangulzai:
Once more, MANY THANKS. You have helped me so much in this "project" of mine. I would never have been able to get to this level of understanding of the lectures without your help (and the help of Chew Bakar and the Minnan Forummers too, of course).
Here are some responses.
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regarding khuaN-ui, i still cannot accept 看�. � in the strictest sense should be "seat" or "space to sit". if the speaker said khuaN3-sO2-cai7 or khuaN3-mih8-kiaN7 is fine, but I still cannot figure out what is khuaN-ui
I agree with you 100%. With sO-cai or mih-kiaN, it does sound so much more natural. So, we have no way of knowing what’s meant here. Perhaps I’ll write to the website and ask them! I don’t want to bother them until I have finished all my analysis, and then the last few points perhaps I’ll ask them.
It did occur to me that perhaps “KhuaN-Ui” is a place, or a village, or something, but this doesn’t seem very likely either. If any readers are from around Ipoh, and know of such a place, please let us know!
>> 斗骹手 tau3-kha1-chiu2 in Singapore
Indeed, this is the most common term in Penang too, I just forgot it! Thanks a lot!
Thank you for your kind words about my analysis of sin-pu. I was embarrassed that 2 days after I expressed my doubt about æ–°, I found 新妇 in my Mandarin-English dictionary, with the meaning “bride”, which is very close to “daughter-in-law”. That doesn’t change the fact that I don’t find it particularly logical to useæ–° for daughter-in-law, for the reasons I gave. In contrast, it does make a lot of sense for Hokkien 新娘, because there it means “bride”, and a “new(ly-married)-girl” is of course a “bride”.
>> regarding na-mo-ben-si-si-jiao-mo-ni-fo, it's
>> �無本師釋迦牟尼佛 na2-mo2-ben3-shi1-shi4-jia1-mou2-ni2-fo2
Wow! Thanks for this. I suppose I should have asked what it means at the time, but I forgot. I’ve now worked out that 釋迦牟尼佛 is “Sakyamuni Buddha”, and 本師 is “original teacher” I guess, but what does å�—ç„¡ mean in this case?
#) 3 additional questions
“seh8”: “to go around in a circle”, as in “iN5-iN5-seh8”. How is it written in characters?
“thai2-ko1”: “leprosy”. How is it written in characters?
“ia-sO-kau”: does this mean any form of Christianity, or Protestantism specifically? My Mandarin-English dictionary translates 耶穌教 as Protestantism, but I wonder if that specialized meaning is also the case in Hokkien, and (even if it is) whether that distinction is made by most Hokkien speakers.
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>> >> 斗骹手 tau3-kha1-chiu2 in Singapore
>> Indeed, this is the most common term in Penang too
Actually, the most common term for "help" in Penang is "tO7-long5" :-)
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Originally posted by Bangulzai:
Fantagf:
yes, Tong An Hokkien is classified under "Amoy Hokkien"
What is amoy? xiamen? -
Hi Fantagf
Yes, Amoy is Xia-men. In Amoy Hokkien, it's e-mng, in ChiangChew(?) dialect, it's e-moi, which is apparently the form which the first missionaries to the area - in the 19th century - first encountered.
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>> Actually, the most common term for "help" in
>> Penang is "tO7-long5"
Along with this is another very common word borrowed from Malay: khi1("sandhi"-tone)-sien7. It means "to pity" or "pitiful".
Is the original Malay word "kesehan" or "kasihan"? I've looked on the net, and haven't been able to find anything sensible. I did find out that in Indonesian it's "kasihan", and there it means "pitiful", but for some reason, I have a slight suspicion that in Malay it means "love" (or perhaps either "love" or "pity). Can anyone tell me? (Sorry, I left Malaysia when I was very young, so my Malay is VERY poor...).
I write "sandhi"-tone above in quotes because of course it's not a real sandhi-tone, because it doesn't have a citation tone, because it's not really a Hokkien syllable.
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Originally posted by SimL:
Hi Fantagf
Yes, Amoy is Xia-men. In Amoy Hokkien, it's e-mng, in ChiangChew(?) dialect, it's e-moi, which is apparently the form which the first missionaries to the area - in the 19th century - first encountered.
Thanks for telling me amoy is xia men. The rest of it I don't understand -
Bangulzai and Fantagf:
>> today in singapore hokkien
>> 今仔日 kin 22 (n)a 44 lit 4
>> or
>> 今日 kim 22 lit 4 or kim 22 dzit 4 ( = the form that you gave)
It may interest you to know that in Penang Hokkien, 今仔日 is always pronounced as 2 syllables only: "kiaN1(sandhi-tone)-jit8". The "kiaN" is clearly a merging of 今仔.
Some of my relatives who spoke a more Amoy-like form said "jit" with a real "d-" (as in Englist "day" or "dish"). There's quite a lot of variation between "j-", "l-", and "d-" in Hokkien, depending on the particular variety.
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>> Thanks for telling me amoy is xia men.
Is that perhaps because you are not familiar with the spelling system I'm using or perhaps because you are not that familiar with Hokkien...?
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Originally posted by SimL:
Bangulzai and Fantagf:
>> today in singapore hokkien
>> 今仔日 kin 22 (n)a 44 lit 4
>> or
>> 今日 kim 22 lit 4 or kim 22 dzit 4 ( = the form that you gave)
It may interest you to know that in Penang Hokkien, 今仔日 is always pronounced as 2 syllables only: "kiaN1(sandhi-tone)-jit8". The "kiaN" is clearly a merging of 今仔.
Some of my relatives who spoke a more Amoy-like form said "jit" with a real "d-" (as in Englist "day" or "dish"). There's quite a lot of variation between "j-", "l-", and "d-" in Hokkien, depending on the particular variety.
I only interested in amoy hokkien and local sg hokkien
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Oops, sorry. I'll try that again:
>> Thanks for telling me amoy is xia men. The rest of it
>> I don't understand
Is that perhaps because you are not familiar with the spelling system I'm using or perhaps because you are not that familiar with Hokkien...?
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>> I only interested in amoy hokkien and local sg hokkien
ah, ok.
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“thai2-ko1”: “leprosy” I think but not sure is æ¹è†�.
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Originally posted by Chew Bakar:
“thai2-ko1”: “leprosy” I think but not sure is æ¹è†�.
The first Spanish missionary had contact with Quanzhou back in 16th century during the late Ming Dynasty. That was the first point of contact with the Westerners and we called them "Ang Mo" for the Spanish brunnette.
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Well, I wonder how literally we should take that "ang" in "ang mO"...? I think my father told me when I was very young that it was because many missionaries in Fujian province (or in the whole world, for that matter) were Scottish, and a lot of Scottish have red hair.
Your explanation makes more sense historically, but then not as many Spanish have red hair...
BTW (changing topics slightly...), does anyone know of this book? It looks great, and I'm about to order it: http://www.dunwoodypress.com/products/-/274
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Hi Bangulzai:
I should do more of my own homework before bothering you!
On www.buddhism-dict.net I found a translation for �無: (Skt. namas; Pali namo) To submit oneself to, from to bend, bow to, make obeisance, pay homage to; an expression of submission to command, complete commitment, reverence, devotion, trust for salvation, etc. It is used constantly in liturgy, incantations, etc. especially as in naman Amitabha, which is the formula of faith of the Pure-land sect, representing the believing heart of all beings and Amitabha's power and will to save; repeated in the hour of death it opens the entrance to the Pure Land. Also written �牟; �謨; �忙; 那謨, 那模, 那麻, �莫, �慕; 娜�; 曩莫, 曩謨, �麻, �謨, etc.
But of course, it's only because you supplied me with the characters that I was able to do this, so thank you very much.
So, I'm translating the full phrase as: "I submit to the original teacher, Sakyamuni Buddha".
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Thanks again chew bakar, one more saying to bother you with. "bo hee hay ah ho" literally "no fish,prawn also good" i always tought prawns were mre expensive than fish so was perplexed by this saying. I asked my dad long ago n he gave a v interesting explanation something to do with a landlord/tenant contract and involved misundertsandings due to punctuation. Landlord's version was that under the lease, food is provided but "bo hee hey, ah ho" meaning even without fish n prawns it will be acceptable to the tenant. But the tenant thought it meant food is provided and if "bo hee, hey ah ho" meaning if there is no fish, there will be prawns. Any thoughts?
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regarding khuaN-ui, i still cannot accept 看�. � in the strictest sense should be "seat" or "space to sit". if the speaker said khuaN3-sO2-cai7 or khuaN3-mih8-kiaN7 is fine, but I still cannot figure out what is khuaN-ui
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Could it be khuaN-ui is 看为 (discover) as this is suppose to be on tour.
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Originally posted by Ahwhyn:
Thanks again chew bakar, one more saying to bother you with. "bo hee hay ah ho" literally "no fish,prawn also good" i always tought prawns were mre expensive than fish so was perplexed by this saying. I asked my dad long ago n he gave a v interesting explanation something to do with a landlord/tenant contract and involved misundertsandings due to punctuation. Landlord's version was that under the lease, food is provided but "bo hee hey, ah ho" meaning even without fish n prawns it will be acceptable to the tenant. But the tenant thought it meant food is provided and if "bo hee, hey ah ho" meaning if there is no fish, there will be prawns. Any thoughts?
Dear Ahwhyn
This is a fishermen phrase. It is not in terms of price of present fish or prawns, in early days fish are dearer than prawns I supposed.
For a fishermen who went out to fish want the boat filled; with fish or prawn doesn't matter rather than come back empty handed.
Hence "bo hee hay ah ho" means something is better than nothing.
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Been reading but afraid to post anything here cuz my hokkien is good enough to put myself in front of a firing squad of hokkien peng.Still I am very impressed to see people like Bangulzai & Mr Chew sharing their knowledge here.
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Originally posted by Short Ninja:
Been reading but afraid to post anything here cuz my hokkien is good enough to put myself in front of a firing squad of hokkien peng.Still I am very impressed to see people like Bangulzai & Mr Chew sharing their knowledge here.
Me just kaypoh kaypoh, Bangulzai is the real help.
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I have finally figured out the sentence thau-ci-le-si-hO-i-sin-sim-tui-hut-huat-ceng. It is é 蜀個是與伊信心å°�ä½›,法,僧 haN, which translates to "the first thing is to give them confidence/faith towards the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha". Buddha-Dharma-Sangha is the Triple Gem of Buddhism, and breaks down Buddhism more specifically.
regarding "night time", my Hokkien is also 暗� am3-miN5 or 下� e7-hng1 or �时 miN5-si0. i too have not heard of eng1(sandhi-tone)-am3 and this is not recorded in the Hokkien resources that I have too. I note a very big possibility that this particular Taiwanese may have lost the general word � for words pertaining to "night" because this word is part of the basic stock of 闽 words that cannot be easily replaced unless the individual's 闽 language is impaired due to external influences.
regarding �無本師釋迦牟尼佛 na2-mo2-ben3-shi1-shi4-jia1-mou2-ni2-fo2, it's a more usual expression to use "Homage to..." instead of "I submit to..."
regarding seh8, the character is 踅. iN5-iN5-seh8 "to go around in a circle" is 圆圆踅 / 圓圓踅
regarding thai2-ko1 "leprosy", it is 癞哥 / 癩哥 (widely used, but etymologically unrelated - based on semantic correspondence for the 1st character & sound correspondence for the 2nd character)
regarding ia5-sO1-kau3, in Singapore, Christianity = all branches of Protestantism. Instead of 耶稣教 ia5-sO1-kau3, I use simply 奉教 hong7-kau3 for that sense. Only Catholicism is separately called 天主教 thien1-cu2-kau3. Embracing Christianity or Catholicism is called 食教 ciah8-ka3 / ciah8-kau3
regarding tO7-long5 "help", we have the exact same pronunciation including same tone contour [tO(21)-long(24)] here in Singapore but I don't use this Malay borrowing as robustly as tau3-kha1-chiu2. In addition to "help", tO7-long5 is frequently used as an interjection eg. "tO7-long5 la !" equating to "Please lah!" / "拜托啦ï¼�" or "tO7-long5 li0, ..." equating to "For god's sake, ..." / "æ‹œæ‰˜ä½ å¥½ä¸�好，．．．"
regarding khi1(sandhi-tone)-sien7 "to pity / pityful", I do not have this Malay borrowing in my Hokkien. My Malay dictionary shows "kasihan": "to symphatize with" / "to pity" / "poor thing!". The root of "kasihan" seems to be "kasih" : "to love"
regarding kiaN1-jit8, it exists in Singapore Hokkien too but I chose not to reflect it in the previous post. i also have another 2 spoken variations kin1-nit8 and kiaN1-nit8
regarding "j-", "l-", "d-" in Hokkien, it is an interesting topic in Hokkien to be discussed. there is another one more variation which falls between "l" and "d" called the alveolar tap which has the IPA symbol of "ɾ" which exist in many other languages too: (reference) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alveolar_tap
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I have been pondering:
“thai2-ko1”: “leprosy” is æ¹æº”.
æ¹ is rotten
溔 is puss