Spanish Grand Prix: 14 May
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exactly. WHERE are these aero upgrades? Why aren't they holding their own in the midfield? I'm not expecting them to challenge the top 4. I'm just not expecting them to be moving backwards. If the 2 men have such a significant impact on the aero dept of McLaren that McLaren have only leapfrogged Honda in terms of outright speed since the season's start, how come the team they went to are moving backwards?Originally posted by Kuali Baba:Newey officially joined in February IIRC. Any influence he might have should be restricted to aero upgrades over the course of the season.
Methinks McLaren and Kimi can bounce back in Monaco. He has the talent, a new engine, some testing at Valencia in the run-up and they are usually strong there.
I don't think the impact they have on McLaren is as significant as some people here are suggesting. If u have a good basic infrastructural department already laid out, the basic design philosophy that was already in existance in that dept doesn't disappear overnight because some key people have left. In fact u open the way for an evolution of ideas by bringing someone new in.
I don't agree that McLaren is not fast enough now because some ppl have left. There were periods when these men were at McLaren and McLaren wasn't fast enough either, esp in the latter part of 03, and the 1st half of 04. An engineering dept is so complex and interlinked that u cannot quantify the loss of a few personel as a total talent drain. We've seen that with Renault when Mike Gascoynne left. -
The current RBR car is not designed and built by the current aero team. And if the car has a fundamental design or aero flaw, the logical thing to do is to design a totally new car for next year and stop wasting your resources in trying to improving on something that doesnt work. To see the effect of the technical team you should look at least 1 year ahead.Originally posted by HENG@:big "if" isn't it? say wheres the magic that u say mclaren's aero team is workin at RBR? how come RBR aren't even solidly in the midfield? if their leaving hurt McLaren as significantly as u say it has, it should also have some significant improvement on RBR cars, so where is it?
At the moment, we are already seeing a deteriorating MP-21 relative to its competitors who are also running on the same tyres. -
yea 'deteriorating' so much that they only passed honda in terms of outright speed.Originally posted by Gazelle:The current RBR car is not designed and built by the current aero team. And if the car has a fundamental design or aero flaw, the logical thing to do is to design a totally new car for next year and stop wasting your resources in trying to improving on something that doesnt work. To see the effect of the technical team you should look at least 1 year ahead.
At the moment, we are already seeing a deteriorating MP-21 relative to its competitors who are also running on the same tyres.
So u really think u can stop developing the car over the course of an F1 season?
If RBR were doing that, they'd be behind Super Aguri.
F1 teams ALWAYS have to improve on something even if it doesn't work. If it doesn't work, all the more u have to improve it. So how come RBR aren't even maintaining their position within the midfield? How come they're sliding backwards? Wheres the magic this magical duo are supposed to work? Even if the car is not designed by them, they should be able to introduce enough aero upgrades to NOT slide backwards. At the rate RBR is sliding backwards, thats amazing magic alright.
Its just amazing what u consider 'deteriorating' and what isn't. Like I said, not biased at all. -
Jean Todt seems to be focusing more on Kimi than Mclaren.Originally posted by HENG@:oh really. so if itv-f1.com says alonso says he's worried about McLaren, its because he's working for them next year. If the same website says Jean Todt says hes worried about McLaren, they've made a mistake and Jean Todt did not say that huh?
Don't write McLaren off warns Todt
Maybe Jean Todt should stop making remarks about things he is not concerned about then.
I like your "unbiased" views. I wonder why??
Kimi is currently trailing Alonso 27 points in the WDC, and Mclaren is trailing Renault 36 points. On top of that, Ferrari is fighting for win. The only way for Mclaren to win anything this season for Renault and Ferrari DNFs. -
because thats what happened in the European GP duh.Originally posted by Gazelle:Jean Todt seems to be focusing more on Kimi than Mclaren. I wonder why??
Kimi is currently trailing Alonso 27 points in the WDC, and Mclaren is trailing Renault 36 points. On top of that, Ferrari is fighting for win. The only way for Mclaren to win anything this season for Renault and Ferrari DNFs.
Its obvious he's talking about MCLAREN (and honda in the article as well)
but i guess for some people, u see only what u wanna see. *shrugs* -
I am sure all team make improvement to their cars over the season regardless if they are running in front or at the back. (They have 400+ people working for the team leh, you expect them to go on holiday or what? :lolOriginally posted by HENG@:yea 'deteriorating' so much that they only passed honda in terms of outright speed.
So u really think u can stop developing the car over the course of an F1 season? If RBR were doing that, they'd be behind Super Aguri.
F1 teams ALWAYS have to improve on something even if it doesn't work. If it doesn't work, all the more u have to improve it. So how come RBR aren't even maintaining their position within the midfield? How come they're sliding backwards? Wheres the magic this magical duo are supposed to work? Even if the car is not designed by them, they should be able to introduce enough aero upgrades to NOT slide backwards. At the rate RBR is sliding backwards, thats amazing magic alright.
Its just amazing what u consider 'deteriorating' and what isn't. Like I said, not biased at all. 
The only question is if the improvement made do contribute to significant gain in performance and also the speed of improvement. As for Mclaren's case, they seem to be lagging behind ferrari and renault.
AN has already make it very clear that his role at RBR is to concentrate on next season's car (Have you noticed that AN doesnt attend all the race weekend?) -
so u're saying that he won't have ANY input into the aero improvement of this season's car? U expect that to be taken as a logical answer?Originally posted by Gazelle:I am sure all team make improvement to their cars over the season regardless if they are running in front or at the back. (They have 400+ people working for the team leh, you expect them to go on holiday or what? :lol
The only question is if the improvement made do contribute to significant gain in performance and also the speed of improvement. As for Mclaren's case, they seem to be lagging behind ferrari and renault.
AN has already make it very clear that his role at RBR is to concentrate on next season's car (Have you noticed that AN doesnt attend all the race weekend?) -
I think you should learn to read between the lines and take their comments with a pinch of salt.Originally posted by HENG@:because thats what happened in the European GP duh.
Its obvious he's talking about MCLAREN (and honda in the article as well)
but i guess for some people, u see only what u wanna see. *shrugs* -
i am reading between the lines. Theres a reason they're not writing off McLaren. The only comments to be taken with a pinch of salt are yours.Originally posted by Gazelle:I think you should learn to read between the lines and take their comments with a pinch of salt.
But hey, what do we expect? Its you. don't think too much, its not healthy for u ya? -
Of course he does, but that is not his PRIORITY.Originally posted by HENG@:so u're saying that he won't have ANY input into the aero improvement of this season's car? U expect that to be taken as a logical answer?
People of AN calibre is to design cars that can compete infront no mid field, and that is what he is paid to do. -
so its ok for the team to slide backwards and not get the aero genius to at least stop the slide. I see I see.Originally posted by Gazelle:Of course he does, but that is not his PRIORITY.
People of AN calibre is to design cars that can compete infront no mid field, and that is what he is paid to do.
our F1 genius Gaz speaks. -
Really? If so, why are you still denying that fact that Kimi is leaving Mclaren for good.Originally posted by HENG@:i am reading between the lines. Theres a reason they're not writing off McLaren. The only comments to be taken with a pinch of salt are yours.
But hey, what do we expect? Its you. don't think too much, its not healthy for u ya?
You are doing this selectively I guess. Mc Fan!! -
Because its not confirmed in any way. Hey u were the one who told us they'll announce his signing with Ferrari in Imola too.Originally posted by Gazelle:Really? If so, why are you still denying that fact that Kimi is leaving Mclaren for good.
You are doing this selectively I guess. Mc Fan!!
So if its so confirmed, how come Renault is now in the picture too?
because, nothing is official. U're the selective one here remember? Mc hater? -
Red Bull is not own by a car manufacturer and they are a team with very very deep pocket. RB has already make it clear that their aim in F1 is to compete for championship and not to collect points.Originally posted by HENG@:so its ok for the team to slide backwards and not get the aero genius to at least stop the slide. I see I see.
our F1 genius Gaz speaks.
My advice to you is that if you want to judge aero department capability, you should do it next year, not now.
Are you just sore because AN walkout of Ron Dennis? Are you going to be MORE sore if kimi walk out of Mclaren to join Ferrari? -
No so it dun matter if RBR become a backmarker team. Thats how F1 works I guess.Originally posted by Gazelle:Red Bull is not own by a car manufacturer and they are a team with very very deep pocket. RB has already make it clear that their aim in F1 is to compete for championship and not to collect points.
My advice to you is that if you want to judge aero department capability, you should do it next year, not now.
Are you just sore because AN walkout of Ron Dennis? Are you going to be MORE sore if kimi walk out of Mclaren to join Ferrari? U throw tons of $ away for nothing.
RB can forget about the championship as long as they use Ferrari engines. U use an engine from someone else who has a vested interested in beating u, you can have the best aero design in the world and u're not going to win jack. If RBR is so concerned about the world championship, they've basically shot themselves in the foot haven't they?
I don't have to be sore really. McLaren has tons of other good designers. sure, they're no AN, but people like Neil are not to be blown off. McLaren's competitive year-old car in 03 might have originally been designed by AN, but it was Neil who got it to atually work while AN worked on the abortive MP4-18. Kimi can leave Mc but Alonso is joining. Next year is next year, and till then, we can see who has the last laugh. -
I was just quoting an article from the internet, and the topic title did end with a question mark (?). Did i say they will? I thought I say (IF).Originally posted by HENG@:Because its not confirmed in any way. Hey u were the one who told us they'll announce his signing with Ferrari in Imola too.
So if its so confirmed, how come Renault is now in the picture too?
because, nothing is official. U're the selective one here remember? Mc hater?
Didnt know it is a taboo here to share rumours and article that are of no interest to Mc fan -
but u said to take those comments n rumors with a pinch of salt!Originally posted by Gazelle:I was just quoting an article from the internet, and the topic title did end with a question mark (?). Did i say they will? I thought I say (IF).
Didnt know it is a taboo here to share rumours and article that are of no interest to Mc fan
I guess that settles it then. Jean Todt DOES think Mc n Honda are still not to be underestimated. forget all the 'reading between lines' crap. Renault AND Ferrari knows u can't underestimate strong rivals even if they aren't doing well. Pure and simple. Do that at yr own risk. -
It is not throwing away money, it is investing for the future. RBR is literally an ex Jaguar team that has been struggling for so many season and you expect that by changing name and getting AN in for 3 months they will be to compete with top team? Be fair lah, even team like Mclaren with such a big budget, infrastructure and Merc backing, still cannot win the championship, how can you expct so much from RBR's first F1 season?.Originally posted by HENG@:No so it dun matter if RBR become a backmarker team. Thats how F1 works I guess. U throw tons of $ away for nothing.
RB can forget about the championship as long as they use Ferrari engines. U use an engine from someone else who has a vested interested in beating u, you can have the best aero design in the world and u're not going to win jack. If RBR is so concerned about the world championship, they've basically shot themselves in the foot haven't they?
I don't have to be sore really. McLaren has tons of other good designers. sure, they're no AN, but people like Neil are not to be blown off. McLaren's competitive year-old car in 03 might have originally been designed by AN, but it was Neil who got it to atually work while AN worked on the abortive MP4-18. Kimi can leave Mc but Alonso is joining. Next year is next year, and till then, we can see who has the last laugh.
Last I heard is the RBR could potentially be using a VW engine to compete in F1. I am sure the RBR guys knows what they are doing, dont need to worry. -
Yeah of course you dont under estimate your rival because they can always steal points away from you when you are competiting for championship. However what we are talking here is not about the possibility of a mclaren revival, or questioning their ability to win races this season, we are talking about their chance of winning the CHAMPIONSHIP.Originally posted by HENG@:but u said to take those comments n rumors with a pinch of salt!
I guess that settles it then. Jean Todt DOES think Mc n Honda are still not to be underestimated. forget all the 'reading between lines' crap. Renault AND Ferrari knows u can't underestimate strong rivals even if they aren't doing well. Pure and simple. Do that at yr own risk. -
boo! thread closed for the two of u... any speculations pls continue un some other forums meant for verbal assaults
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What to do? Someone's goal in life is to be an evil bitch?Originally posted by SBS9828X:boo! thread closed for the two of u... any speculations pls continue un some other forums meant for verbal assaults
BTW, the Iceman managed a fifth placing yesterday. Hope this is some consolation to die-hard Silver Arrow fans.
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Interesting question, isn't it?Originally posted by Gazelle:I wonder why MS was unable to catch up with alonso when Massa was able to clock the fastest lap time. the championship is definitely getting more and more interesting and it will be interesting to see the qualifying at Monaco in 2 weeks time. I believe renault will have an edge over the ferrari.
Hmm. MS leaves an 18-second gap while his team mate puts in the fastest lap. MS' former team mate, who won the occasional race at Ferrari and led MS a couple of times, can't keep up with Jenson Button now and flounders in mid-pack.
Do the math. The cars were great, the drivers are (to put it charitably) very ordinary. -
Overall i think it was a boring race. Beside Kimi's fantastic start, and Toyota touching each other, there is actually nothing interesting to talk about.Originally posted by Gedanken:Interesting question, isn't it?
Hmm. MS leaves an 18-second gap while his team mate puts in the fastest lap. MS' former team mate, who won the occasional race at Ferrari and led MS a couple of times, can't keep up with Jenson Button now and flounders in mid-pack.
Do the math. The cars were great, the drivers are (to put it charitably) very ordinary. -
Heng, even kimi has given up hope of winning any championship this season. Yeah they are still a threat, but maybe not for the front runner.Originally posted by HENG@:oh really. so if itv-f1.com says alonso says he's worried about McLaren, its because he's working for them next year. If the same website says Jean Todt says hes worried about McLaren, they've made a mistake and Jean Todt did not say that huh?
Don't write McLaren off warns Todt
Maybe Jean Todt should stop making remarks about things he is not concerned about then.
I like your "unbiased" views.
http://www.f1racing.net/en/news.php?newsID=118332 -
The race itself is not quite my point, Gaz. My point is that a middling driver pulls fastest laps in the same kind of car that the *ahem* 7-time WDC is flopping about in, and said *ahem* 7-time WDC's former teammate (who won the occasional race in a Ferrari) has gone to another team is and now wandering aimlessly towards the wrong end of midpack. It's supports your view that it's 80% car and 20% driver, although in Ferrari's case that could be unfair to the car.Originally posted by Gazelle:Overall i think it was a boring race. Beside Kimi's fantastic start, and Toyota touching each other, there is actually nothing interesting to talk about.