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That doesn't contradict anything I said. This will certainly speed up the bedding-in process.Originally posted by Gazelle:With Fernando Alonso coming in to join McLaren next year it is logical for the Woking team to want engineers that Fernando knows and trusts and with Renault facing increasing uncertainty about its budget in the future, Renault people are an easier target than would normally be the case.
One of the moderator has been insisting that driver and engineers relationship is not an issue in winning WDC because Senna has proven otherwise. However what he didnt realised is that todays F1, the pace of development is so much faster than 20 years ago and there is such things a CFD which is running on a whole rack linux system, something which only NASA can use them 20 years ago.Originally posted by Kuali Baba:That doesn't contradict anything I said. This will certainly speed up the bedding-in process.
Hey Ged, I think you are getting old.Originally posted by Gedanken:So, let's see what I have missed here. Nothing much, it seems.
The change in technology doesn't change the speed with which changes are made. If it's something specific like suspension stiffness and wing angle, it can still be quickly done. If anything, work like suspension adjustment is now even faster than 20 years ago - it's simply a matter of popping the nose cover off, pulling out the old torsion bars and whacking in a new set, unlike with the cumbersome dampers of days past.
If it's a fairly substantial change, like aerodynamics, it'll still take a long time.
Neither of those impacts on the fact that the driver needs to give proper feedback to the engineers, and if the driver can't do it, or if the engineers can't understand what he's telling them, no amount of time that they've worked together is going to change things.
Case in point: Jacques Villeneuve. He's worked for a much shorter time at BMW than he did at BAR, and he's still getting better results with BMW. If you took his case and insisted that the relationship's age was a factor, you might be led to falsely that the effectiveness is INVERSELY related to length of time he's worked with the engineers.
Well, if things take that long to gel, the team would still be all over the place by your argument, wouldn't it?Originally posted by Gazelle:JV has been driving for Sauber since beginning of 2005. The BMW team which you are saying is basically the same Sauber team of engineers working with JV together with BMW engineer and engine, I wont call that a "NEW" team, would you?
not really. In modern F1, the engineers actually have ALOT more information about the cars on track than the drivers themselves. That is a HUGE difference in the way the communicate and work with each other.Originally posted by Gedanken:Have there been any changes in the way people talk to each other?
Regardless of whether it's 2006 or 1986, the driver still tells the engineer, "The car was jumping all over the place at Turn 5". The changes made to the car to correct for that problem have changed - in certain situations, as I have said before, it's even quicker to make changes now - but the COMMUNICATION between the driver and the engineer is the same game as it has always been.
We are not in a discussion to talk about how Sauber and BMW engineers gel within the organisation arent we? So please dont try to divert this discussion just to make yourself sound more right.Originally posted by Gedanken:Well, if things take that long to gel, the team would still be all over the place by your argument, wouldn't it?
Do make up your mind.
In that case, why should the engineer even bother talking to the driver? You're making a self-contradicting argument:Originally posted by Gazelle:not really. In modern F1, the engineers actually have ALOT more information about the cars on track than the drivers themselves.
Hey, you're the one who argued that changing engineers is an issue. Are you saying that changing engines and whole new engine team isn't counted as changing engineers?Originally posted by Gazelle:We are not in a discussion to talk about how Sauber and BMW engineers gel within the organisation arent we? So please dont try to divert this discussion just to make yourself sound more right.
The point here is that, you have gotten your facts wrong AGAIN.
JV working relationship with his engineers didnt start in 2006, it was in 2005 when the team was still call Sauber.
Not really, after the engineer read all that telemetry, they will feedback to the driver if there is any problem or if they want to driver to push the car, and in return, the driver will have to make some adjustment on the steering or change his driving approach to correct the problem or gain lap time.Originally posted by Gedanken:In that case, why should the engineer even bother talking to the driver? You're making a self-contradicting argument:
- drivers and engineers need to be able to work with each other
- engineers get their information from the telemetry, so there's not much need for input from drivers
The engine department doesnÂ’t work directly with the drivers, they usually work with the chassis, electronic and aero department, which will then work with the drivers through the driverÂ’s engineer.Originally posted by Gedanken:Hey, you're the one who argued that changing engineers is an issue. Are you saying that changing engines and whole new engine team isn't counted as changing engineers?
So, let me get this straight. If, say 20 years ago, the engineer had to tell the driver, "Adjust the brake balance knob on the steering wheel forward 5%", he would do it differently?Originally posted by Gazelle:Not really, after the engineer read all that telemetry, they will feedback to the driver if there is any problem or if they want to driver to push the car, and in return, the driver will have to make some adjustment on the steering or change his driving approach to correct the problem or gain lap time.
And all these type of communication was not available 20 years ago. So what exactly are you talking about when you say that communication between the driver and engineers have not change in the past 20 years?
Oh, I see! So Mario Thiessen wasn't a key engineer, and he never spoke to JPM or Half directly because they only spoke to Sam Michael?Originally posted by Gazelle:The engine department doesnÂ’t work directly with the drivers, they usually work with the chassis, electronic and aero department, which will then work with the drivers through the driverÂ’s engineer.
Do you know that in Modern F1 team there are over 300 engineers working on all different parts of the cars. So does it make sense for us to discuss the effect of one of this engineer leaving and its effect on the drivers?
I am assuming that you are pretending to misinterpret the meaning of engineers so that it will give you a reason to get your facts wrong.
As for the effect of key engineers leaving the team, I have already highlighted from the beginning of the thread, hence there is no point talking about it all again.
He didn't say anything like that in his original post. He said that JV's been with BMW-Sauber/Sauber for a much shorter time than he had been with BAR (and is achieving more now than he did in the last 2 years with the latter). Now stop putting words in everybody's mouth and argue properly.Originally posted by Gazelle:The point here is that, you have gotten your facts wrong AGAIN.
JV working relationship with his engineers didnt start in 2006, it was in 2005 when the team was still call Sauber.
Quote : Case in point: Jacques Villeneuve. He's worked for a much shorter time at BMW than he did at BAR, and he's still getting better results with BMW.Originally posted by Kuali Baba:He didn't say anything like that in his original post. He said that JV's been with BMW-Sauber/Sauber for a much shorter time than he had been with BAR (and is achieving more now than he did in the last 2 years with the latter). Now stop putting words in everybody's mouth and argue properly.
I am a mod in case you didn't notice, and you know what he meant but ignored it just to antogonise everyone.Originally posted by Gazelle:Quote : Case in point: Jacques Villeneuve. He's worked for a much shorter time at BMW than he did at BAR, and he's still getting better results with BMW.
Where the HELL you find the word BMW-Sauber / Sauber? And stop trying to speak for your moderator because I think he as MR MODERATOR deserve to speak for himself.
I have noticed MOD seem to be very bias towards MOD these days.Originally posted by Kuali Baba:I am a mod in case you didn't notice, and you know what he meant but ignored it just to antogonise everyone.
1) Do the engineers 20 years ago have so much information about the cars as Modern F1?Originally posted by Gedanken:So, let me get this straight. If, say 20 years ago, the engineer had to tell the driver, "Adjust the brake balance knob on the steering wheel forward 5%", he would do it differently?
Mario is a Director of Motorsports for BMW, although he is a mechanical engineer but he is not a key engineer responsible for the day to day R&D of BMW F1 engine.Originally posted by Gedanken:Oh, I see! So Mario Thiessen wasn't a key engineer, and he never spoke to JPM or Half directly because they only spoke to Sam Michael?
Does that change the way they talk to each other?Originally posted by Gazelle:1) Do the engineers 20 years ago have so much information about the cars as Modern F1?
2) 20 years ago, the steering wheel of the F1 cars are not as sophisticated as today and there are not many things drivers can change within the car.
So why carry on about KEY engineers then?Originally posted by Gazelle:Mario is a Director of Motorsports for BMW, although he is a mechanical engineer but he is not a key engineer responsible for the day to day R&D of BMW F1 engine.
As a Motorsports director or team boss, he doesnt get involve with direct communication with the drivers about setting up cars and doing development.
(Please dont try to change the topic of discussion)
FYI, the engineers which HALF (not ralf ) and JPM deal with the most at williams is not Sam Michael, it is their personal race engineer. The reason for this arrangement is because drivers are not engineers they speaks a different and simple lanaguage and it is the race engineer's job to undestand the driver and translate that into more technical explaination for the engineering department.
That being the case, even a child could see how your argument doesn't add up.Originally posted by Gazelle:It seems like the questions you are asking are slowly getting more and more childish by the day.