Mclaren heading for trouble next year?
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No - the crash test was just one problem with the 18 chassis. As KB posted, they also had a problem with flex, which affects both aerodynamic and mechanical grip. It wasn't just fragile, it was slow as well.Originally posted by Gazelle:Basicially that was the problem with the MP18, it is not that it is not fast, but just to fragile.
No, the outlook is better for Mac. At the very least they're going to get a WDC (more likely 2-time WDC) on board, and they're not fighting with Merc like Williams did with BMW.Originally posted by Gazelle:FYI, Newey wasnt the only KEY aero engineer that left Mclaren. And come next year, 2 of their drivers will leave too. I suspect Mclaren is going to suffer the same fate as Williams when both JPM and Ralf left them at the same time. -
Alonso - Kimi - JPM - Newey - Tombazis - Prodromou = Positive?Originally posted by Gedanken:No, the outlook is better for Mac. At the very least they're going to get a WDC (more likely 2-time WDC) on board, and they're not fighting with Merc like Williams did with BMW.
Then I am sure Alonso should be worth 100m per season. F1 is 80% car and 20% driver, how much can Alonso contribute if he is given a car that iconstantly DNF? Alonso is just a driver, he is no mechanic or engineer.
Fighting or not is not my concern. My concern here is that to have 2 new drivers with 2 different driving style working with a new team of engineers and a new car that is design by a new team for the first time, it will an up hill task. -
Slow is comparison to what? A MP4-F16 Falcon? You might want to get your facts right on this.Originally posted by Gedanken:No - the crash test was just one problem with the 18 chassis. As KB posted, they also had a problem with flex, which affects both aerodynamic and mechanical grip. It wasn't just fragile, it was slow as well
14 July 2003
Testing roundup - new McLaren shines
The new McLaren MP4-18 finally began to show its true potential on Friday when Alexander Wurz steered it to the fastest time of the week in testing at Barcelona.
The AustrianÂ’s best of 1m 17.616s was over half a second a quicker than the second-placed Ferrari of Luca Badoer, moving McLaren to the top of the timesheets in week that had, up to then, been dominated by Williams and Ferrari.
McLaren ran both the new car and the current MP4-17 in tandem throughout the week, with Kimi Raikkonen, David Coulthard and Pedro de la Rosa all on track. Despite the newfound pace of the MP4-18, the car suffered several technical problems during the week and the team has still to confirm when it will make its official race debut.
The on-form Williams team also had a very busy week as, like their rivals, they endeavoured to cram as much development work in as possible ahead of the forthcoming summer testing ban.
Williams completed over 4000km of running thanks to a four-day split testing programme in Barcelona and Ladoux, with four drivers in action. At Barcelona Ralf Schumacher and Marc Gene concentrated on set-up configurations and tyre selection in preparation for the British Grand Prix, as well as focusing on the aero and mechanical variables of the FW25. Estonian driver Marko Asmer also joined them for a day at the Spanish track, while in Ladoux, occasional Williams tester Olivier Beretta concentrated on a tyre programme for Michelin.
Ferrari had cars running at three circuits as they worked closely with tyre supplier Bridgestone. Luca Badoer and Rubens Barrichello topped the times at Barcelona on Tuesday and Thursday respectively, with Ralf Schumacher interrupting their reign on Wednesday.
The world champions were also in action at Fiorano and Mugello in Italy, with Michael Schumacher and Felipe Massa continuing the intensive development programme of the F2003-GA and its Bridgestone tyres.
Allan McNish was the man at the wheel for Renault’s three-day programme at Barcelona, which the team described as “successful” after the Scot racked up well over 300 laps, concentrating primarily on tyre development.
Olivier Panis and Cristiano da Matta shared the driving duties for ToyotaÂ’s four-day Barcelona test, the Japanese team working on tyre choice for Silverstone and later races, and the evaluation of new aerodynamic, mechanical and engine developments.
BAR ran for three days at Barcelona, with Jenson Button, Jacques Villeneuve, Takuma Sato and Anthony Davidson all taking the wheel of the 005. As well as general set-up, aero and tyre work, the team also got to test a new specification Honda V10, which they hope to use at Silverstone this weekend.
SauberÂ’s four-day Spanish test was conducted by Heinz-Harald Frentzen, Nick Heidfeld and Neel Jani. The Swiss team completed a wide-ranging programme of work, including calibrating a new C-specification of their Petronas V10 engine.
Ralph Firman had exclusive responsibility for JordanÂ’s two-day test, which saw the team conducting tyre development with Bridgestone as well as general set-up work ahead of the British Grand Prix.
Meanwhile, at Jaguar Mark Webber and Antonio Pizzonia shared their teamÂ’s three-day programme, Webber running on Wednesday and Thursday, before handing over to the Brazilian on Friday.
Unofficial Friday times from Barcelona:
1. A.Wurz, McLaren, 1:17.616
2. L.Badoer, Ferrari, 1:18.316
3. R.Schumacher, Williams, 1:18.402
4. D.Coulthard, McLaren, 1:18.678
5. A.McNish, Renault, 1:18.753
6. O.Panis, Toyota, 1:18.775
7. K.Raikkonen, McLaren, 1:19.005
8. J.Villeneuve, BAR, 1:19.011
9. M.Gene, Williams, 1:19.417
10. T.Sato, BAR, 1:19.716
11. A.Pizzonia, Jaguar, 1:19.876
12. A.Davidson, BAR, 1:20.434
13. N.Jani, Sauber, 1:21.955
http://www.formula1.com/race/news/614/28.html
http://www.formula1.com/news/533.html -
And how reflective is testing time of race performance? If that was the case, Jenson Button ought to be running away with the WDC by now.Originally posted by Gazelle:Slow is comparison to what? A MP4-F16 Falcon? You might want to get your facts right on this.
14 July 2003
Testing roundup - new McLaren shines
The new McLaren MP4-18 finally began to show its true potential on Friday when Alexander Wurz steered it to the fastest time of the week in testing at Barcelona.
The AustrianÂ’s best of 1m 17.616s was over half a second a quicker than the second-placed Ferrari of Luca Badoer, moving McLaren to the top of the timesheets in week that had, up to then, been dominated by Williams and Ferrari.
McLaren ran both the new car and the current MP4-17 in tandem throughout the week, with Kimi Raikkonen, David Coulthard and Pedro de la Rosa all on track. Despite the newfound pace of the MP4-18, the car suffered several technical problems during the week and the team has still to confirm when it will make its official race debut.
The on-form Williams team also had a very busy week as, like their rivals, they endeavoured to cram as much development work in as possible ahead of the forthcoming summer testing ban.
Williams completed over 4000km of running thanks to a four-day split testing programme in Barcelona and Ladoux, with four drivers in action. At Barcelona Ralf Schumacher and Marc Gene concentrated on set-up configurations and tyre selection in preparation for the British Grand Prix, as well as focusing on the aero and mechanical variables of the FW25. Estonian driver Marko Asmer also joined them for a day at the Spanish track, while in Ladoux, occasional Williams tester Olivier Beretta concentrated on a tyre programme for Michelin.
Ferrari had cars running at three circuits as they worked closely with tyre supplier Bridgestone. Luca Badoer and Rubens Barrichello topped the times at Barcelona on Tuesday and Thursday respectively, with Ralf Schumacher interrupting their reign on Wednesday.
The world champions were also in action at Fiorano and Mugello in Italy, with Michael Schumacher and Felipe Massa continuing the intensive development programme of the F2003-GA and its Bridgestone tyres.
Allan McNish was the man at the wheel for Renault’s three-day programme at Barcelona, which the team described as “successful” after the Scot racked up well over 300 laps, concentrating primarily on tyre development.
Olivier Panis and Cristiano da Matta shared the driving duties for ToyotaÂ’s four-day Barcelona test, the Japanese team working on tyre choice for Silverstone and later races, and the evaluation of new aerodynamic, mechanical and engine developments.
BAR ran for three days at Barcelona, with Jenson Button, Jacques Villeneuve, Takuma Sato and Anthony Davidson all taking the wheel of the 005. As well as general set-up, aero and tyre work, the team also got to test a new specification Honda V10, which they hope to use at Silverstone this weekend.
SauberÂ’s four-day Spanish test was conducted by Heinz-Harald Frentzen, Nick Heidfeld and Neel Jani. The Swiss team completed a wide-ranging programme of work, including calibrating a new C-specification of their Petronas V10 engine.
Ralph Firman had exclusive responsibility for JordanÂ’s two-day test, which saw the team conducting tyre development with Bridgestone as well as general set-up work ahead of the British Grand Prix.
Meanwhile, at Jaguar Mark Webber and Antonio Pizzonia shared their teamÂ’s three-day programme, Webber running on Wednesday and Thursday, before handing over to the Brazilian on Friday.
Unofficial Friday times from Barcelona:
1. A.Wurz, McLaren, 1:17.616
2. L.Badoer, Ferrari, 1:18.316
3. R.Schumacher, Williams, 1:18.402
4. D.Coulthard, McLaren, 1:18.678
5. A.McNish, Renault, 1:18.753
6. O.Panis, Toyota, 1:18.775
7. K.Raikkonen, McLaren, 1:19.005
8. J.Villeneuve, BAR, 1:19.011
9. M.Gene, Williams, 1:19.417
10. T.Sato, BAR, 1:19.716
11. A.Pizzonia, Jaguar, 1:19.876
12. A.Davidson, BAR, 1:20.434
13. N.Jani, Sauber, 1:21.955
http://www.formula1.com/race/news/614/28.html
http://www.formula1.com/news/533.html
Note that the article header said "began to show its true potential", and for good reason. It doesn't mention the 18's lack of reliability, including severe cooling problems and had a tendency to fly off the track for no reason. The 18 was an unmitigated disaster, even if you don't factor in the crash test. -
McLaren minus Newey, as I have said, is a step forward IMO - his head hasn't been with the team for ages. If you were an employer and one of your key staff kept trying to make a break for it, do you think it's going to do your company any good? Juan Lap Wonder didn't do a whole lot for Williams, and he sure hasn't done much for Mac between tennis injuriesOriginally posted by Gazelle:Alonso - Kimi - JPM - Newey - Tombazis - Prodromou = Positive?
Then I am sure Alonso should be worth 100m per season. F1 is 80% car and 20% driver, how much can Alonso contribute if he is given a car that iconstantly DNF? Alonso is just a driver, he is no mechanic or engineer.
Fighting or not is not my concern. My concern here is that to have 2 new drivers with 2 different driving style working with a new team of engineers and a new car that is design by a new team for the first time, it will an up hill task.
, so it'll be no loss if he leaves. Rob Taylor hasn't done such a bad job with Red Bull, so let's see what he can do with MacMerc's resources behind him before we start making prophecies of doom.
Fighting's not a concern? Why don't you take a look at what happened when Head and Thiessen were busy passing the buck before the big breakup. Go on, tell me it isn't a problem when your chassis and engine builders can't get along. -
the arguement here is weather the MP4-18 is a fast or slow car, it is not about if has the race reliability because MP4-18 has NEVER made it to the race before. What I have shown you is hard facts that the MP418 is not a slow car.Originally posted by Gedanken:And how reflective is testing time of race performance? If that was the case, Jenson Button ought to be running away with the WDC by now.
Note that the article header said "began to show its true potential", and for good reason. It doesn't mention the 18's lack of reliability, including severe cooling problems and had a tendency to fly off the track for no reason. The 18 was an unmitigated disaster, even if you don't factor in the crash test.
If MP4-18A doesnt have the potential, then why would mclaren want to develop MP4-19A and MP4-19B out of the MP4-18A? -
Unfortunately Mclaren minus Newey has not reflect any positive step forward. In 2005, the MP20 were clearly the fastest car and was close to winning both championship. In 2006 we would expect Mclaren to bring forward their success from last year, unfortunately there was a 180 degree turn and till now they have yet to win a single race and both championships are out of reach for mclaren after just 4 to 5 races into the season.Originally posted by Gedanken:McLaren minus Newey, as I have said, is a step forward IMO - his head hasn't been with the team for ages. If you were an employer and one of your key staff kept trying to make a break for it, do you think it's going to do your company any good? Juan Lap Wonder didn't do a whole lot for Williams, and he sure hasn't done much for Mac between tennis injuries, so it'll be no loss if he leaves. Rob Taylor hasn't done such a bad job with Red Bull, so let's see what he can do with MacMerc's resources behind him before we start making prophecies of doom.
Fighting's not a concern? Why don't you take a look at what happened when Head and Thiessen were busy passing the buck before the big breakup. Go on, tell me it isn't a problem when your chassis and engine builders can't get along.
As a employer, Rib job is to extract the maximum potential out of everybody, especially the key engineers and drivers. For mclaren's case, it think their focus has shifted from people to Ron's majestic MTC. If there is nothing wrong within the company, there is no reason why Newey and so many other key engineers, drivers are leaving Mclaren one after another. And guess what, they are moving to teams with smaller budget.
My argument of Mclaren suffering the same fade as Williams is on the driver front, not on the business relationship between partners or sponsors. The importance of partners working in harmony is another story all together and I am sure you have read what I have written about Merc relationship with Ron Dennis and TAG. -
A car can be a fast within a limited situation, but if you can't count on it to be fast, a team's not going to release it from testing, and that's what happened with the 18. It may have clocked some good lap times at barcelona and other test tracks, but if it's going to pitch itself off the track unpredictably, you can't count it as fast.Originally posted by Gazelle:the arguement here is weather the MP4-18 is a fast or slow car, it is not about if has the race reliability because MP4-18 has NEVER made it to the race before. What I have shown you is hard facts that the MP418 is not a slow car.
If MP4-18A doesnt have the potential, then why would mclaren want to develop MP4-19A and MP4-19B out of the MP4-18A?
The 19 was a classic case of throwing in a good dollar after a bad one. Look at the 2004 points and it'll tell you the whole story. -
Originally posted by Gedanken:
We all know that the MP4-18A has never made it to the race because of design problem. And the whole argument started because you were saying that on top of the design flaw the MP4-18A is not a fast car. What I am saying here is that you have gotten your facts wrong because the car did managed to produce some amazing lap times during testing at Barcelona.
A car can be a fast within a limited situation, but if you can't [b]count on it to be fast, a team's not going to release it from testing, and that's what happened with the 18. It may have clocked some good lap times at barcelona and other test tracks, but if it's going to pitch itself off the track unpredictably, you can't count it as fast.
The 19 was a classic case of throwing in a good dollar after a bad one. Look at the 2004 points and it'll tell you the whole story.[/b]
I see no reason why you are bringing up the MP19 because I have already mentioned that the MP19B was a mistake which Mclaren shouldnt have taken. And like I have said Newey was against the idea.
Yeah you are right, Mclaren indeed are throwing good dollar (400m to be exact) and good people. -
Correction - the MP20 was the fastest once they figured out how to make it work.Originally posted by Gazelle:Unfortunately Mclaren minus Newey has not reflect any positive step forward. In 2005, the MP20 were clearly the fastest car and was close to winning both championship. In 2006 we would expect Mclaren to bring forward their success from last year, unfortunately there was a 180 degree turn and till now they have yet to win a single race and both championships are out of reach for mclaren after just 4 to 5 races into the season.
As a employer, Rib job is to extract the maximum potential out of everybody, especially the key engineers and drivers. For mclaren's case, it think their focus has shifted from people to Ron's majestic MTC. If there is nothing wrong within the company, there is no reason why Newey and so many other key engineers, drivers are leaving Mclaren one after another. And guess what, they are moving to teams with smaller budget.
As for Newey, once he gets it into his head to leave, he can be a pain in the ass. Remember his "gardening leave" from Williams before jumping over to Mac?
Is the MP4-21 the same as the MP4-20? Does it even have the same number of cylinders? While you could hope for the MP4-20's success to be repeated, you can't expect it. Hell, even with the same tight team at Ferrari, they had a less-than-merry year in 2005, after a walkover in 2004. Did Byrne or Brawn leave? Where's your basis for Newey's leaving being a disaster?
That's funny - a while ago you said that thedriver's only 20% of the equation, and now you're saying that because both drivers may be leaving that Mac's in trouble? Please make up your mind.Originally posted by Gazelle:My argument of Mclaren suffering the same fade as Williams is on the driver front, not on the business relationship between partners or sponsors. The importance of partners working in harmony is another story all together and I am sure you have read what I have written about Merc relationship with Ron Dennis and TAG.
If you are saying that the driver front is the important part, they're getting a proven WDC winner on board - how can that be in any way similar to what happened at Williams?
In any case, it's not a given thing that Kimi is leaving, as likely as that may seem. With Fisichella's signing, it looks like the key options for Kimi are to go to Ferrari or stay at Mac. -
You're kidding, right? If a car's going to be unstable and pitch itself off the track, you're willing to call it fast? Are you sure you know the basics of racing, e.g. Brabham's saying "If you want to finish first, first you have to finish"?Originally posted by Gazelle:We all know that the MP4-18A has never made it to the race because of design problem. And the whole argument started because you were saying that on top of the design flaw the MP4-18A is not a fast car. What I am saying here is that you have gotten your facts wrong because the car did managed to produce some amazing lap times during testing at Barcelona.
Say what? You're the one who asked why the 19 was developed from the 18. You all right there, Gaz?Originally posted by Gazelle:I see no reason why you are bringing up the MP19
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*sigh* Sadly I can't disagree with you there. Ron's made a few odd decisions over the years.Originally posted by Gazelle:Yeah you are right, Mclaren indeed are throwing good dollar (400m to be exact) and good people. -
And who do you think was involve in making the MP20 work?? Ron Dennis and his MTC?Originally posted by Gedanken:Correction - the MP20 was the fastest once they figured out how to make it work.
As for Newey, once he gets it into his head to leave, he can be a pain in the ass. Remember his "gardening leave" from Williams before jumping over to Mac?
Is the MP4-21 the same as the MP4-20? Does it even have the same number of cylinders? While you could hope for the MP4-20's success to be repeated, you can't expect it. Hell, even with the same tight team at Ferrari, they had a less-than-merry year in 2005, after a walkover in 2004. Did Byrne or Brawn leave? Where's your basis for Newey's leaving being a disaster? The reason why MP21 is taking such a long time to show its potential is because the creator of the car is no longer with the team and please dont under estimate the influence of the aero engineer when we are talking about F1.
Lets not talk about Newey's character as a person because all good and capable people have strong character. Btw, Newey did take a pay cut in 2005 for extended holiday leave...
Ferrari failure in 2005 was related to some restructring issue, include JT taking over the ferrari commercial business and most of all Bridgestone tyres performance with the single tyre rules. And yes, Mclaren did snatch Thomas Tombazis away from Ferrari in 2005 to be their chief aero engineer) and now he iis going back to Ferrari after one year.
Mclaren success of 2005 should have motivated the team to continue their domination in 2006. That is wat F1 team success if all about. Maybe Ron should learn something from Flavio -
Hey dude, track time is the measurement of the car going Round and Round the circuit and not only section of the circuit or straight line speed. And Barcelona, being a track with high and low speed corners, if you have unstable car, do you think you can acheive good track time?Originally posted by Gedanken:You're kidding, right? If a car's going to be unstable and pitch itself off the track, you're willing to call it fast? Are you sure you know the basics of racing, e.g. Brabham's saying "If you want to finish first, first you have to finish"?
Brabham is talking about a race car, what we are discussion here is speed of a car that is unfit for race. -
Engineers doesnt drive the car, it is the driver and test drivers who drives it. In order for the engineer to build and set a car to the driver's preference, the engineers will have to undertand the driver's driving style (such as understeer or oversteer prefereence, braking distant etc) and then the driver will have to learn how to communicate with the engineers so as to provide accurate information about the car. This is all about getting to know each other so that everything will be running in sync.Originally posted by Gedanken:That's funny - a while ago you said that thedriver's only 20% of the equation, and now you're saying that because both drivers may be leaving that Mac's in trouble? Please make up your mind.
If you are saying that the driver front is the important part, they're getting a proven WDC winner on board - how can that be in any way similar to what happened at Williams?
In any case, it's not a given thing that Kimi is leaving, as likely as that may seem. With Fisichella's signing, it looks like the key options for Kimi are to go to Ferrari or stay at Mac.
My arguement about drivers being 20% of the equation is still valid because this is a learning curve which Mclaren will not have to go through if both JPM and Kimi remains with the team.
Weather Kimi is leaving or not, we can only speculate that in another thread. But my guess is that Kimi is likely to go to Renault. -
Originally posted by Gedanken:
I was trying to hint to you that you have got your facts wrong about the MP18A and Newey's involvement in MP19A and MP19B.
Say what? [b]You're the one who asked why the 19 was developed from the 18. You all right there, Gaz? [/b] -
Look, why don't you go find out your facts? The crash test was only one reason why the 18 didn't make it to the track, but you seem to be too fixated on that one thing to realise that instability and cooling were problems as well. They couldn't figure out why the car snapped out every once in a while, and even though you had some good lap times, they couldn't count on it to be fast.Originally posted by Gazelle:Hey dude, track time is the measurement of the car going Round and Round the circuit and not only section of the circuit or straight line speed. And Barcelona, being a track with high and low speed corners, if you have unstable car, do you think you can acheive good track time?
Brabham is talking about a race car, what we are discussion here is speed of a car that is unfit for race.
Why do you think cars like the MP4/4 and the F1-2004 were so dominant? They were reliably fast, not just quick for a testing lap or two. Your idea of fast is good for a drag racing, not F1. -
So why ask why I was tlaking about the 19 when you brought it up?Originally posted by Gazelle:I was trying to hint to you that you have got your facts wrong about the MP18A and Newey's involvement in MP19A and MP19B.
Mind you, now that you've brought it up, the 19's a good example of the case where keeping the designer doesn't help. -
Aw gee, so is that why Senna didn't win the '88 championship? After all, it was just his first year at McLaren and the engineers didn't know his preferences.Originally posted by Gazelle:Engineers doesnt drive the car, it is the driver and test drivers who drives it. In order for the engineer to build and set a car to the driver's preference, the engineers will have to undertand the driver's driving style (such as understeer or oversteer prefereence, braking distant etc) and then the driver will have to learn how to communicate with the engineers so as to provide accurate information about the car. This is all about getting to know each other so that everything will be running in sync. -
You're killing me laughing here, Gaz. If the 20 was so good under Newey's supervision, why did they spend the second half of the season catching up to Renault? The fact is that Newey designed it, but took half the season for him, Tombazis and Prodromou to sort it out before it finally came good.Originally posted by Gazelle:And who do you think was involve in making the MP20 work?? Ron Dennis and his MTC? The reason why MP21 is taking such a long time to show its potential is because the creator of the car is no longer with the team and please dont under estimate the influence of the aero engineer when we are talking about F1.
Lets not talk about Newey's character as a person because all good and capable people have strong character. Btw, Newey did take a pay cut in 2005 for extended holiday leave...
Ferrari failure in 2005 was related to some restructring issue, include JT taking over the ferrari commercial business and most of all Bridgestone tyres performance with the single tyre rules. And yes, Mclaren did snatch Thomas Tombazis away from Ferrari in 2005 to be their chief aero engineer) and now he iis going back to Ferrari after one year.
Mclaren success of 2005 should have motivated the team to continue their domination in 2006. That is wat F1 team success if all about. Maybe Ron should learn something from Flavio
After the FW15, Newey's career slid down at Williams as well, and if Patrick wasn't running things with his usual iron fist, Hill and Villeneuve could well have been also-rans. The guy's good for a while at one place and then burns out. Sure as hell he's no Rory Byrne.
You're hilarious. First you ask if Ron is responsible for making the car work, and next you say that Ferrari flopped because Todt was equally occupied. Slow down, man - you're tripping over yourself. -
When you talk about MP4-19 it is best that we talk about the A and B version.Originally posted by Gedanken:So why ask why I was tlaking about the 19 when you brought it up?
Mind you, now that you've brought it up, the 19's a good example of the case where keeping the designer doesn't help.
The A version was done out of desperate measure and bascially an improved version of the MP4-18. The MP4-19B was an idea which Newey doesnt support. So which designer are you talking about? Ron Dennis? -
Originally posted by Gedanken:
In year 2005, Kimi has more race victory than Alonso. If not for Merc engine blowing up and some unlucky DNF for kimi, the WDC and WCC would have already swing mclaren's way. Please go and read the Nov 2005 issue of F1 Racing to find out if the MP20 is as bad as what you are saying.
You're killing me laughing here, Gaz. If the 20 was so good under Newey's supervision, why did they spend the second half of the season [b]catching up to Renault? The fact is that Newey designed it, but took half the season for him, Tombazis and Prodromou to sort it out before it finally came good.
After the FW15, Newey's career slid down at Williams as well, and if Patrick wasn't running things with his usual iron fist, Hill and Villeneuve could well have been also-rans. The guy's good for a while at one place and then burns out. Sure as hell he's no Rory Byrne.
You're hilarious. First you ask if Ron is responsible for making the car work, and next you say that Ferrari flopped because Todt was equally occupied. Slow down, man - you're tripping over yourself.[/b]
Dude, its about time that you get your facts right again!!
You should be laughing at yourself because the joke about ron is suppose to be for you. -
Get your facts right dude, we are talking about changing 2 (TWO) drivers at the same time. Alain Prost was already with Mclaren since 1984 and he was with Mclaren until 89. What you talking about?Originally posted by Gedanken:Aw gee, so is that why Senna didn't win the '88 championship? After all, it was just his first year at McLaren and the engineers didn't know his preferences. -
The fact is that MP4-18A was never a SLOW car. Didnt know they have drag racing at Barcelona circuit..Originally posted by Gedanken:Look, why don't you go find out your facts? The crash test was only one reason why the 18 didn't make it to the track, but you seem to be too fixated on that one thing to realise that instability and cooling were problems as well. They couldn't figure out why the car snapped out every once in a while, and even though you had some good lap times, they couldn't count on it to be fast.
Why do you think cars like the MP4/4 and the F1-2004 were so dominant? They were reliably fast, not just quick for a testing lap or two. Your idea of fast is good for a drag racing, not F1. -
MP4-19A:Originally posted by Gazelle:The A version was done out of desperate measure and bascially an improved version of the MP4-18. The MP4-19B was an idea which Newey doesnt support. So which designer are you talking about? Ron Dennis?
Number of wins: 0
Average points per start: 0.94
MP4-19B:
Number of wins: 1
Aberage points per start: 2.89
Sorry, which car did Newey NOT support? The B? The one that got 2.89 points per start compared to the A's 0.94?
Very good, Gaz.