Mclaren heading for trouble next year?
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And what have Mac's problems been of late? Lack of straight-line speed and wiring looms catching fire. What's Newey's departure got to do with these? Or did you think Newey built the engines as well?Originally posted by Gazelle:Not so long ago, you were saying that the departure of Newey and all the other engineers will have no impact on the performance of Mclaren this season. -
Here's another angle to your little top-prize theory, Gaz.
Remember the big brouhaha about the viewership numbers for the Australian GP going down after the Commonwealth Games? If Ghosn's quote applied at a WCC level instead of race by race, it wouldn't have been a big deal at all, since the drop wouldn't have had a huge effect on the overall figures.
Yet it was.
Every race counts, silverware and all. -
i dont see how can you judge the value of each championship to a team just by watching the celebration.Originally posted by Gedanken:Typo - WDC for MS in 2000.
The typo still doesn't change the fact that Williams and Ferrari have very different defintions of what the top prize is.
logically speaking the WCC has got more value to a team because WCC remain with the team while WDC remain with the drivers. Furthermore, the WCC is definitely a better advertisement tools for car manufacturers while WDC will be be good for the driver's personal sponsorship and endorsement. -
Lack of straighline speed is likely to do with the car having too much drag. The aim of the aero department is to find the optimal balance between strighline speed and downforce.Originally posted by Gedanken:And what have Mac's problems been of late? Lack of straight-line speed and wiring looms catching fire. What's Newey's departure got to do with these? Or did you think Newey built the engines as well?
As for the wiring that caught fire in Monaco, I believe it is similar to redbull problem in the beginning of the season, where by the aero package is not in sync with the engine and hence causes over heating problem. If you have a good aero package you will be able to take advantage of it by wrapping the car tighter and closer to the engine. -
Agreed that one might think so. However, go back to Ferrari's press statements of 1999 and 2000 and it's evident that they hold both to be equally important if they don't place more importance on the WDC - it's a tofosi thing.Originally posted by Gazelle:i dont see how can you judge the value of each championship to a team just by watching the celebration.
logically speaking the WCC has got more value to a team because WCC remain with the team while WDC remain with the drivers. Furthermore, the WCC is definitely a better advertisement tools for car manufacturers while WDC will be be good for the driver's personal sponsorship and endorsement.
From an advertising perspective, I'd disagree that the WCC is more important. To put it simply, would more people remember that Ayrton Senna was the WDC or that the MP4/4 was the car that won 15 out of 16 races that year? The driver attracts more attention than the car. -
viewership will affect the amount of money sponsors are willing to pay to the team. However it will not have as big as an impact as winning or losing the championship.Originally posted by Gedanken:Here's another angle to your little top-prize theory, Gaz.
Remember the big brouhaha about the viewership numbers for the Australian GP going down after the Commonwealth Games? If Ghosn's quote applied at a WCC level instead of race by race, it wouldn't have been a big deal at all, since the drop wouldn't have had a huge effect on the overall figures.
Yet it was.
Every race counts, silverware and all.
What Ghosn is trying to say is that being in F1 doesnt necessary pay off even if you win the championship, because you need to convert your success in F1 to success in your bread and butter road car business. -
If you've got a good engine, you can run more downforce and still get better straightline speed. Mac themselves have proven that with cars like the MP4/4 - Murray's package wasn't all that spectacular, but the Honda's extra power made up for a lot of shortcomings.Originally posted by Gazelle:Lack of straighline speed is likely to do with the car having too much drag. The aim of the aero department is to find the optimal balance between strighline speed and downforce.
As for the wiring that caught fire in Monaco, I believe it is similar to redbull problem in the beginning of the season, where by the aero package is not in sync with the engine and hence causes over heating problem. If you have a good aero package you will be able to take advantage of it by wrapping the car tighter and closer to the engine.
As it is, the wiring heated up at low speeds behind the safety car, and so the cable layout was more of a factor than cooling, otherwise other teams would have expeirenced meltdowns of the same nature since they were all going slowly.
Haug and gang the problem here, not Newey. -
So you're saying that people buy cars based upon the team's WCC performance?Originally posted by Gazelle:viewership will affect the amount of money sponsors are willing to pay to the team. However it will not have as big as an impact as winning or losing the championship.
What Ghosn is trying to say is that being in F1 doesnt necessary pay off even if you win the championship, because you need to convert your success in F1 to success in your bread and butter road car business. -
The objective of a manufacture is to sell more cars. By having fans is good, but that alone is not enough to pay for the investment car manufactures have invested into the sport. Fan is good, but customer is King.Originally posted by Gedanken:Agreed that one might think so. However, go back to Ferrari's press statements of 1999 and 2000 and it's evident that they hold both to be equally important if they don't place more importance on the WDC - it's a tofosi thing.
From an advertising perspective, I'd disagree that the WCC is more important. To put it simply, would more people remember that Ayrton Senna was the WDC or that the MP4/4 was the car that won 15 out of 16 races that year? The driver attracts more attention than the car. -
Especially performance cars. Ferrari did very well with their F430 and BMW M5 was a killer, and they even win the Engine of the Year awards.Originally posted by Gedanken:So you're saying that people buy cars based upon the team's WCC performance?
If you are looking for a performance cars, I am sure you will prefer to have a manufacturer that have success in F1. If not, why do you think car manufacturers are willing to invest so much money to the sports. -
That weasel LDM probably agrees with that, but old Enzo would have smacked anyone who suggested that to him.Originally posted by Gazelle:The objective of a manufacture is to sell more cars. By having fans is good, but that alone is not enough to pay for the investment car manufactures have invested into the sport. Fan is good, but customer is King.
Besides, how much have guys like Frank Williams, Eddie Jordan, Paul Stoddart, Dietrich Mateschitz and Alex Shnaider made from selling cars? -
Uhh, has BMW won a WCC lately?Originally posted by Gazelle:Especially performance cars. Ferrari did very well with their F430 and BMW M5 was a killer, and they even win the Engine of the Year awards.
If you are looking for a performance cars, I am sure you will prefer to have a manufacturer that have success in F1. If not, why do you think car manufacturers are willing to invest so much money to the sports.
Nuff said. -
Cosworth V8 was supposed to be the most powerful this year, and yet they are no where near the top teams. I wont know what was the regulation in the MP4/4 days, but as far as current F1 is concern, Aero package is probably the key to the team success. That is probably the reason why teams are starting to run 2 wind tunnel 24/7.Originally posted by Gedanken:If you've got a good engine, you can run more downforce and still get better straightline speed. Mac themselves have proven that with cars like the MP4/4 - Murray's package wasn't all that spectacular, but the Honda's extra power made up for a lot of shortcomings.
As it is, the wiring heated up at low speeds behind the safety car, and so the cable layout was more of a factor than cooling, otherwise other teams would have expeirenced meltdowns of the same nature since they were all going slowly.
Haug and gang the problem here, not Newey.
Merc engine wasnt the most powerful last season and yet they were the fastest on the grid. -
They're powerful, they're fast, but they're fragile. Also, Williams' TC/LC systems have never been the best on the grid.Originally posted by Gazelle:Cosworth V8 was supposed to be the most powerful this year, and yet they are no where near the top teams. I wont know what was the regulation in the MP4/4 days, but as far as current F1 is concern, Aero package is probably the key to the team success. That is probably the reason why teams are starting to run 2 wind tunnel 24/7.
What, you mean after Merc started building engines instead of grenades? Sure, nobody's going to disagree that aero is important, but going back to your point about Newey leaving (where this all started), do you think he's still that good after the MP4-18 fiasco? On top of that, I'd question his motivation, not only at the point where he jumped ship, but since before the Jaguar mess. It's time they got someone fresher and with more drive anyway.Originally posted by Gazelle:Merc engine wasnt the most powerful last season and yet they were the fastest on the grid. -
If you ask Enzo to pump in 400m a year in f1, he will probably take out a gun and shoot you in the head..Originally posted by Gedanken:That weasel LDM probably agrees with that, but old Enzo would have smacked anyone who suggested that to him.
Besides, how much have guys like Frank Williams, Eddie Jordan, Paul Stoddart, Dietrich Mateschitz and Alex Shnaider made from selling cars?
but in today F1, 400m is not impossible.
Frank Williams did help sell Renault before. Remember Clio Willams?
EJ, PS and AS are not backed up by any car manufacturers except for their engine supplier. They dont spend 200m every year in F1 R&D do they?
DM is here for 2 reasons to sell his carbonated Red Bull drinks to the upper class and to eventually sell his team to VW (just wait and see) -
Oh yeah, the Clio Williams. What a raving success that was.Originally posted by Gazelle:If you ask Enzo to pump in 400m a year in f1, he will probably take out a gun and shoot you in the head.. but in today F1, 400m is not impossible.
Frank Williams did help sell Renault before. Remember Clio Willams?
EJ, PS and AS are not backed up by any car manufacturers except for their engine supplier. They dont spend 200m every year in F1 R&D do they?
DM is here for 2 reasons to sell his carbonated Red Bull drinks to the upper class and to eventually sell his team to VW (just wait and see)
So what if Eddie and the others aren't backed up by manufacturers? You're the one who argued that the point of all of this was selling cars. I'm saying there's more to the business than that, and the WCC isn't the be-all-and-end-all for all team owners. -
The problem with MP4-18 is not that it is not fast, but it is too fragile and it fail the FIA impact test.Originally posted by Gedanken:What, you mean after Merc started building engines instead of grenades? Sure, nobody's going to disagree that aero is important, but going back to your point about Newey leaving (where this all started), do you think he's still that good after the MP4-18 fiasco? On top of that, I'd question his motivation, not only at the point where he jumped ship, but since before the Jaguar mess. It's time they got someone fresher and with more drive anyway.
In the recent newey interview with R1 Racing Newey did mentioned that he has suggested to the team to drop the ideal of trying to improve the MP18 and start working on a completely new design for MP19. However the team's instruction to him is to create a evolution of the MP18 and hence the MP19 was born, which is also a failure. -
common sense will tell that the reason for car manufacturer to pump in hundred of millions every season in F1 is to sell more cars and to sell more cars, you have to win, and the top prize is to win the WCC.Originally posted by Gedanken:Oh yeah, the Clio Williams. What a raving success that was.
So what if Eddie and the others aren't backed up by manufacturers? You're the one who argued that the point of all of this was selling cars. I'm saying there's more to the business than that, and the WCC isn't the be-all-and-end-all for all team owners. -
Nope - the crash-test issue on the 18 only held it up for four months tops. The design was fundamentally flawed, so much so that the problems flowed over to the 19.Originally posted by Gazelle:The problem with MP4-18 is not that it is not fast, but it is too fragile and it fail the FIA impact test.
In the recent newey interview with R1 Racing Newey did mentioned that he has suggested to the team to drop the ideal of trying to improve the MP18 and start working on a completely new design for MP19. However the team's instruction to him is to create a evolution of the MP18 and hence the MP19 was born, which is also a failure.
Mind you, at the same time, remember that Newey wanted to so design racing yachts instead, so you have to ask where his head was. -
Common sense would also say that they should be racing the cars they sell for more direct marketing - "you too can drive this race-winning car" - but they don't, do they?Originally posted by Gazelle:common sense will tell that the reason for car manufacturer to pump in hundred of millions every season in F1 is to sell more cars and to sell more cars, you have to win, and the top prize is to win the WCC.
I would suggest that you read up on Enzo Ferrari and Soichiro Honda. In particular, once Honda passed away, the board voted to pull out of F1 even though they were still on their winning streak with McLaren.
I'm not saying that there is a commercial incentive there, but it's not the exclusive reason. Renault could have been content winning with their engines, but they still wanted to win a championship with their own car, probably to make up for introducing turbos in 1980 and having kit car teams run off with the goodies. -
Beside being too fragile, which area of the MP 18 was flawed? And why blame it on Newey when it was Mclaren's decision to make a evolution of the 18 for 19?Originally posted by Gedanken:Nope - the crash-test issue on the 18 only held it up for four months tops. The design was fundamentally flawed, so much so that the problems flowed over to the 19.
Mind you, at the same time, remember that Newey wanted to so design racing yachts instead, so you have to ask where his head was.
In his recent interview, he still claim that he wanted to design racing yachts, but not now. The RB3 will be a proof to what Newey is all about. let just wait for another 9 months and we will see. It will be interesting to see who will be driving RB3 next year. -
The MP4-18's chassis had too much flex as well, as did the 19's. This was a common weakness in twin-keel designs. The 19B was modified to reduce this and refine the aerodynamics of the car further.
Let's not forget - where was ex-Arrows designer Mike Coughlan in all this? Correct me if I'm mistaken, but he was more involved in the transition of the 18 to the 19. I didn't read about what Newey was doing during this time. -
Anyway, Gaz got his figures from Business F1 magazine. The article appears in Yahoo as well.
http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/15062006/13/mclaren-f1-s-biggest-spender.html
The figures given are for expenditures, not budgets...and unlike in English football my anthlered friend, neither has any bearing on success. -
KB's got the rigidity problem covered already, and from there you can see that it was Newey's design that was flawed, regardless of management's decision. If management did make a mistake, it was in deciding to try and salvage a flawed design instead of starting from scratch with a full season's grace.Originally posted by Gazelle:Beside being too fragile, which area of the MP 18 was flawed? And why blame it on Newey when it was Mclaren's decision to make a evolution of the 18 for 19?
In his recent interview, he still claim that he wanted to design racing yachts, but not now. The RB3 will be a proof to what Newey is all about. let just wait for another 9 months and we will see. It will be interesting to see who will be driving RB3 next year.
Newey's performance at RB is not going to be of direct relevance to what we're talking about here, which in particular is how Newey performed at McLaren specifically. Keep in mind that while he was there, he tried to make a break for it to Jaguar, and then also wanted to switch to designing yachts, which certainly indicates that he wasn't all that happy at McLaren. Why he was unhappy is another matter, but the point I'm making is that Mac have taken a step ahead, rather than a step backward, by letting an unhappy designer go. -
Basicially that was the problem with the MP18, it is not that it is not fast, but just to fragile. Mclaren did tried to salvage the flaw by introducing MP19A, but Newey idea was to quickly design something new for MP19B because he believe there is no way you can make a winning car out of MP18 and still pass the FIA crash test.Originally posted by Gedanken:KB's got the rigidity problem covered already, and from there you can see that it was Newey's design that was flawed, regardless of management's decision. If management did make a mistake, it was in deciding to try and salvage a flawed design instead of starting from scratch with a full season's grace.
Newey's performance at RB is not going to be of direct relevance to what we're talking about here, which in particular is how Newey performed at McLaren specifically. Keep in mind that while he was there, he tried to make a break for it to Jaguar, and then also wanted to switch to designing yachts, which certainly indicates that he wasn't all that happy at McLaren. Why he was unhappy is another matter, but the point I'm making is that Mac have taken a step ahead, rather than a step backward, by letting an unhappy designer go.
FYI, Newey wasnt the only KEY aero engineer that left Mclaren. And come next year, 2 of their drivers will leave too. I suspect Mclaren is going to suffer the same fate as Williams when both JPM and Ralf left them at the same time.