Mclaren heading for trouble next year?
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What are u talking about?Originally posted by Gazelle:Ferrari failure during the 80s to 90s was pretty much due to their decision to stick with the V12 engine while their competitors were running a more fuel economical and efficent V10. I personally doubt the ferrari team was running such a big budget during the crisis, and I believe it was only after Marlboro become the title sponsor in 97 that they start all that huge spending spree.
As for toyota they are still a relative new team. If I am not mistaken, it took Mclaren about 9 years to win their first silverware. Honestly you cant really blame Toyota for the huge spending because they are own by the world most profitable auto company. As for Mclaren, it is only part own by Merc and dont think Merc & Ron and TAG have the pocket that is as deep as Toyota.
Renault has been in F1 since the 70s but they have only been an engine supplier till 2000 when they bought over Benetton. Relative to other team, I think Renault have scored no. 1 in teams of points per million. And this year, it looks like they are heading for both championship again.
BMW is starting to close in on Mclaren and if BMW start to overtake Mclaren in the constructor points next year, mclaren will be in deep trouble.
you really don't know your facts. McLaren was founded in 1966, scored their 1st formula 1 wins in 1968 with 2 wins in non-championship rounds, scored their 1st formula 1 championship round win with a win that same year in belgium. 9 years? your maths fail ah? even to their 1st championship itself, in 1974, it was 8 years, not 9. All through those 8 years, they were always a small team, and it wasn't till 1972 that they had a big sponser in Yardley. They came 2nd in 1968, and had 2 4th and 2 3rd places in the championship, with the exception of 6th in 1970 due to Bruce McLaren's death derailing the team for the year.
As for Renault, u've got your facts wrong again. Renault produced their own cars back in the 80s as well. In fact Alain Prost started out racing for Renault b4 moving on to McLaren. Renault's 1st ever 1-2 victory AS A CONSTRUCTOR was way back in 1982. Who says they were only an engine supplier till 2000?
BMW starting to close in on McLaren? Yea sure in the past 2 races they looked like they were close challengers for McLaren for the podium slots eh? In the last 2 races McLaren scored 8 pts at Monaco and 9 pts at Silverstone. What did BMW score? 2 pts in Monaco and 3 pts at Silverstone? Wow yesI can see they're closing in fast on McLaren. Hmmm...
McLaren is in trouble, but not deep trouble. Why do u go out of your way to slam them so much? Is it because of your constant ignorance of the facts? Judging by what u have just said about McLaren and Renault in your post which i quoted, that seems to be a likely cause. -
you're the one who's posting it here, YOU have to state the sources. If you don't its as good as it being your own concocted figures. Besides, the figure of Toyota's spending being 499mil was privately confirmed by many other people in the know, on the grid. So that alone makes your figures inaccurate. Unless u're telling me that Toyota is heavily understaffedOriginally posted by Gazelle:As far as I know the figures from F1 Racing is only an estimate of the editor, and not some figures coming out from any financial institution. What makes you think that they are the most accurate?
Why dont you do a google search 'McLaren is F1's biggest spender' to find out where is the info is coming from.
seeing as how German labour and minimum wage rules are so much higher than UK's
I also did a google on "Toyota is F1's biggest spender" and I got many reports on that as well. One example from here:
http://www.yourmonaco.com/grand_prixToyota is shown to be the biggest spender with an annual budget of around £290 million, pushing Ferrari into second place with their £250 million fund. Renault, which won the constructors' title in 2005, spent £166 million.
how? got contradicting reports leh. seeing as u're so biased against McLaren, its no wonder u'll just keep picking on them. -
If Ferrari were running on a small budget, FIAT must have been ripped off in a major manner. Mind you, back in those days the kit-car teams were the small-budget ones, always fighting to keep up with the manufacturer-backed teams like Ferrari. Go do the math - back in the 80's, who else had the funds to build their own engine AND car?Originally posted by Gazelle:Ferrari failure during the 80s to 90s was pretty much due to their decision to stick with the V12 engine while their competitors were running a more fuel economical and efficent V10. I personally doubt the ferrari team was running such a big budget during the crisis, and I believe it was only after Marlboro become the title sponsor in 97 that they start all that huge spending spree.
As for toyota they are still a relative new team. If I am not mistaken, it took Mclaren about 9 years to win their first silverware. Honestly you cant really blame Toyota for the huge spending because they are own by the world most profitable auto company. As for Mclaren, it is only part own by Merc and dont think Merc & Ron and TAG have the pocket that is as deep as Toyota.
Renault has been in F1 since the 70s but they have only been an engine supplier till 2000 when they bought over Benetton. Relative to other team, I think Renault have scored no. 1 in teams of points per million. And this year, it looks like they are heading for both championship again.
BMW is starting to close in on Mclaren and if BMW start to overtake Mclaren in the constructor points next year, mclaren will be in deep trouble.
As Heng has said, the funding situation in the 1960's is absolutely nothing like what it is today. Comparing Toyota in 2006 with McLaren in 1960 is just plain silly. A more apt comparison would be to Honda, who took 4 years to wint their first race in 1967.
BMW? Closing in on Mac? Is this like the predicted Ferrari 1-2 at Silverstone? -
Team spending does change over the years, the question you should be asking is if the figure you highlighted was for last year or this year etc. not shouting and screaming about which report is correct or more accurate.Originally posted by HENG@:you're the one who's posting it here, YOU have to state the sources. If you don't its as good as it being your own concocted figures. Besides, the figure of Toyota's spending being 499mil was privately confirmed by many other people in the know, on the grid. So that alone makes your figures inaccurate. Unless u're telling me that Toyota is heavily understaffed seeing as how German labour and minimum wage rules are so much higher than UK's
I also did a google on "Toyota is F1's biggest spender" and I got many reports on that as well. One example from here:
http://www.yourmonaco.com/grand_prix
quote:
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Toyota is shown to be the biggest spender with an annual budget of around £290 million, pushing Ferrari into second place with their £250 million fund. Renault, which won the constructors' title in 2005, spent £166 million.
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how? got contradicting reports leh. seeing as u're so biased against McLaren, its no wonder u'll just keep picking on them.
If you consider that labour cost in germany is costing more than in UK, then mclaren in UK is spending alot more than toyota in Germany? Question is where does all the additional spending of mclaren goes too? My guess is the probably the huge running cost of the paragon which till now is not producing any result. -
u can talk a lot and say everything. fact is, your facts are wrong and the things u say are inaccurate. your last few posts already proved that. Go on, tell me again that Renault was only an engine supplier till 2000.Originally posted by Gazelle:Team spending does change over the years, the question you should be asking is if the figure you highlighted was for last year or this year etc. not shouting and screaming about which report is correct or more accurate.
If you consider that labour cost in germany is costing more than in UK, then mclaren in UK is spending alot more than toyota in Germany? Question is where does all the additional spending of mclaren goes too? My guess is the probably the huge running cost of the paragon which till now is not producing any result. -
When I say Mclaren has yet to win any silverware for the past 8 years, do you have reason to believe that I was refering to only GP win?Originally posted by HENG@:What are u talking about? you really don't know your facts. McLaren was founded in 1966, scored their 1st formula 1 wins in 1968 with 2 wins in non-championship rounds, scored their 1st formula 1 championship round win with a win that same year in belgium. 9 years? your maths fail ah? even to their 1st championship itself, in 1974, it was 8 years, not 9. All through those 8 years, they were always a small team, and it wasn't till 1972 that they had a big sponser in Yardley. They came 2nd in 1968, and had 2 4th and 2 3rd places in the championship, with the exception of 6th in 1970 due to Bruce McLaren's death derailing the team for the year.
As for Renault, u've got your facts wrong again. Renault produced their own cars back in the 80s as well. In fact Alain Prost started out racing for Renault b4 moving on to McLaren. Renault's 1st ever 1-2 victory AS A CONSTRUCTOR was way back in 1982. Who says they were only an engine supplier till 2000?
BMW starting to close in on McLaren? Yea sure in the past 2 races they looked like they were close challengers for McLaren for the podium slots eh? In the last 2 races McLaren scored 8 pts at Monaco and 9 pts at Silverstone. What did BMW score? 2 pts in Monaco and 3 pts at Silverstone? Wow yesI can see they're closing in fast on McLaren. Hmmm...
McLaren is in trouble, but not deep trouble. Why do u go out of your way to slam them so much? Is it because of your constant ignorance of the facts? Judging by what u have just said about McLaren and Renault in your post which i quoted, that seems to be a likely cause.
My definition of silverware is refering to the top prize not GP silverwares..
Renault begin their F1 as a in 1977 and the team disfunction in 1983, after which they have just been engine supplier until year 2001.
Not so long ago someone has even deny that Mclaren wasnt in any sort of trouble and still believe that Kimi will be driving the silver car next year and the mclaren will still be challenging the WDC and WCC this year. -
Originally posted by Gazelle:
weak arguments and inconsistancies in your statement is of no use here.
When I say Mclaren has yet to win any [b]silverware for the past 8 years, do you have reason to believe that I was refering to only GP win?
My definition of silverware is refering to the top prize not GP silverwares..
Renault begin their F1 as a in 1977 and the team disfunction in 1983, after which they have just been engine supplier until year 2001.
Not so long ago someone has even deny that Mclaren wasnt in any sort of trouble and still believe that Kimi will be driving the silver car next year and the mclaren will still be challenging the WDC and WCC this year.
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1stly, We all know that Silverware as used in the racing community refers to trophy pieces, which denotes not even just wins, but podium places as well. You trying to argue otherwise, is useless.
2ndly, you did NOT say 8 years, u said 9. Either way, even IF silverware had meant what u think it to mean, you'd still have been incorrect because u said 9, which is wrong.
As for what u're trying to say about Renault, I have no idea. You're not even coherent. Don't need to come here and babble so many useless "facts" to me. Until the end of the year, anything can happen, and what I think will happen is a matter of opinion, of which there is no "right" opinion. However, u can't even get your facts, things which have already happened and are indisputabe, right. So dun come n talk nonsense.
Besides, u want to talk about inaccurate opinions? I might think Kimi will stay next year but at least im not as absurd to think BMW is closing on McLaren in any way. -
Originally posted by Gazelle:
When you say silverware it could mean anything, including forks and knives. What reason have you given for anybody to believe that you were referring to any particular definition?
When I say Mclaren has yet to win any [b]silverware for the past 8 years, do you have reason to believe that I was refering to only GP win?
My definition of silverware is refering to the top prize not GP silverwares..
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It's not as if "silverware" is even a known in racing vernacular to be anything other than a non-specific trophy.
If someone were to accuse you of talking nonsense when you're talking about silverware, you haven't given him any reason to be a liar.
What top prize? The WCC? WDC? Longest time spent flushing the WC? Be specific instead of trying to sound like you know the lingo, because you're not making much sense. -
I am not going to argue with some diehard blinded mclaren fan about what is silverware. Yes, I am refering to the TOP prize; the prize which all top teams and drivers are aiming for, and not occasional GP win which Mclaren is struggling to acheive this season, and that is despite having the MTC, Kimi, JPM, Merc engine, $400m worth of spending and over 40 years of F1 history.Originally posted by HENG@:weak arguments and inconsistancies in your statement is of no use here.
1stly, We all know that Silverware as used in the racing community refers to trophy pieces, which denotes not even just wins, but podium places as well. You trying to argue otherwise, is useless.
2ndly, you did NOT say 8 years, u said 9. Either way, even IF silverware had meant what u think it to mean, you'd still have been incorrect because u said 9, which is wrong.
As for what u're trying to say about Renault, I have no idea. You're not even coherent. Don't need to come here and babble so many useless "facts" to me. Until the end of the year, anything can happen, and what I think will happen is a matter of opinion, of which there is no "right" opinion. However, u can't even get your facts, things which have already happened and are indisputabe, right. So dun come n talk nonsense.
Besides, u want to talk about inaccurate opinions? I might think Kimi will stay next year but at least im not as absurd to think BMW is closing on McLaren in any way. -
In football having silverware is refered to winning the top prize of the competition, not winning matches during the competition. And for european big clubs, the top price is winning the Champions league.Originally posted by Gedanken:When you say silverware it could mean anything, including forks and knives. What reason have you given for anybody to believe that you were referring to any particular definition? It's not as if "silverware" is even a known in racing vernacular to be anything other than a non-specific trophy.
If someone were to accuse you of talking nonsense when you're talking about silverware, you haven't given him any reason to be a liar.
What top prize? The WCC? WDC? Longest time spent flushing the WC? Be specific instead of trying to sound like you know the lingo, because you're not making much sense.
In motor racing, I guess top teams will all be aiming at the top prize, which is F1 the WDC and WCC, and not some occasional wins when luck is on their side.
Here is a quite from Carlos Ghosn
Formula One is a cost if you don't get the results. Formula One is an investment if you do have them and know how to exploit them.
I am not sure if F1 is an investment to Merc anymore because Merc is losing marketshare and Mclaren is now struggling to even win a GP. -
go on. delude yourself. Gedanken is not a diehard macca fan but he thinks u're just trying to smoke out about the silverware thing.Originally posted by Gazelle:I am not going to argue with some diehard blinded mclaren fan about what is silverware. Yes, I am refering to the TOP prize; the prize which all top teams and drivers are aiming for, and not occasional GP win which Mclaren is struggling to acheive this season, and that is despite having the MTC, Kimi, JPM, Merc engine, $400m worth of spending and over 40 years of F1 history.
even if thats what u mean, u still got your facts wrong, u said 9 years, not 8.
like i said, u don't know your facts, period. nothing more to argue about. -
mclaren will be in no trouble if they keep their current paint job
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Hello! Are you talking about football or F1 here? You've got the wrong sport, sport. We can't give you red cards, but at the rate you're going in this discussion you sure are looking for a black flag.Originally posted by Gazelle:In football having silverware is refered to winning the top prize of the competition, not winning matches during the competition. And for european big clubs, the top price is winning the Champions league.
In motor racing, I guess top teams will all be aiming at the top prize, which is F1 the WDC and WCC, and not some occasional wins when luck is on their side.
Here is a quite from Carlos Ghosn
Formula One is a cost if you don't get the results. Formula One is an investment if you do have them and know how to exploit them.
I am not sure if F1 is an investment to Merc anymore because Merc is losing marketshare and Mclaren is now struggling to even win a GP.
Besides, what top prize (singular) are you talking about? The WDC or the WCC? Williams really don't give half a stuff if one of their drivers wins the WDC, as long as the team wins the WCC. Ferrari, on the other hand, take it either way.
In other words, there's no agreement on such a thing as a top prize in F1.
You guess? Don't guess - it's leading you down the wrong path. Go get your facts straight and take the time to understand them instead of just quoting. -
I am not keen to get involve with any argument on what does the term silverware really mean because it can mean anything that is silver in color. Now that you know what I was referring to, kindly please move on with it.Originally posted by Gedanken:Hello! Are you talking about football or F1 here? You've got the wrong sport, sport. We can't give you red cards, but at the rate you're going in this discussion you sure are looking for a black flag.
Besides, what top prize (singular) are you talking about? The WDC or the WCC? Williams really don't give half a stuff if one of their drivers wins the WDC, as long as the team wins the WCC. Ferrari, on the other hand, take it either way.
In other words, there's no agreement on such a thing as a top prize in F1.
You guess? Don't guess - it's leading you down the wrong path. Go get your facts straight and take the time to understand them instead of just quoting.
As a car manufacturer, the top prize in F1 is to win the WCC. No? -
u dun know yr facts, period. nothing more to say.Originally posted by Gazelle:I am not keen to get involve with any argument on what does the term silverware really mean because it can mean anything that is silver in color. Now that you know what I was referring to, kindly please move on with it.
As a car manufacturer, the top prize in F1 is to win the WCC. No? -
The paint job on the MP21 is not cheap man, maybe that explain why mclaren has become the largest spender on the grid.Originally posted by junh:mclaren will be in no trouble if they keep their current paint job
Have they forgotten that they are running a race car and not some kinda of dress car contest?
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No, I don't know what you were referring to, and neither does Heng, because you were using terms you don't understand yourself and transferring concepts over from a completely unrelated sport.Originally posted by Gazelle:I am not keen to get involve with any argument on what does the term silverware really mean because it can mean anything that is silver in color. Now that you know what I was referring to, kindly please move on with it.
As a car manufacturer, the top prize in F1 is to win the WCC. No?
And no, the top prize for manufacturers is not necessarily the WCC. Ferrari shrugged their shoulders when they got the WCC in 1999 but Hakkinen got the WDC, but they sure celebrated the next year when MS became WCC.
Get your terms straight and get your facts straight. If you're not keen to get even this basic thing right, why bother debating more complex issues? -
Mclaren has yet to win a single race this season and they are struggling to win this season. That is a fact!!Originally posted by HENG@:u dun know yr facts, period. nothing more to say. -
looks like someone has nothing substantial to say. if u're having to resort to such low blows, obviously u're just an empty vessal making noise.Originally posted by Gazelle:Mclaren has yet to win a single race this season and they are struggling to win this season. That is a fact!! -
How did MS become WCC? When did MS run his own team?Originally posted by Gedanken:No, I don't know what you were referring to, and neither does Heng, because you were using terms you don't understand yourself and transferring concepts over from a completely unrelated sport.
And no, the top prize for manufacturers is not necessarily the WCC. Ferrari shrugged their shoulders when they got the WCC in 1999 but Hakkinen got the WDC, but they sure celebrated the next year when MS became WCC.
Get your terms straight and get your facts straight. If you're not keen to get even this basic thing right, why bother debating more complex issues? -
in 04 McLaren had a dismal year. I bet u thot they were headed for trouble in 05 too.
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Typo - WDC for MS in 2000.Originally posted by Gazelle:How did MS become WCC? When did MS run his own team?
The typo still doesn't change the fact that Williams and Ferrari have very different defintions of what the top prize is. -
Not so long ago, you were saying that the departure of Newey and all the other engineers will have no impact on the performance of Mclaren this season. And you think that MTC was such a big deal and it will create championship winning cars.Originally posted by HENG@:looks like someone has nothing substantial to say. if u're having to resort to such low blows, obviously u're just an empty vessal making noise.
Look what happen to Mclaren now?
Kimi departure to renault or ferrrari is really making Ron and Merc sweat!!! haha,..I am sure poor mclaren fans like you must be damn sad huh?? -
get your facts right!!Originally posted by Gedanken:Typo - WDC for MS in 2000. -
oh, my facts are right - it's just my typing that's buggered.Originally posted by Gazelle:get your facts right!!
Which is more than I can say for someone who can't tell the difference between grown men runnign after a ball and cars going round.