Hungarian Grand Prix: 31 July
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Agreed. He's had too much alreadyOriginally posted by dragg:i think just the opposite. kimi always drive like there is no tomorrow. even when he is leading he never slows down.
and he is very cool. of course alonso is good too.
as long as schmaucher doesnt win, i am happy.
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You didn't know they've been calling him Half Schumacher for years? For crying out loud, when he switched to Toyota this year, he bingled the company car because, unlike the road cars that BMW supplied, it didn't have a reverse proximity sensor.Originally posted by SBS9828X:Wat u talking? Half??? Alonso clearly is a skilled driver... but Raikonnen have a great team.
BTW did u mean ralf? 
The sad truth, loathe as I am to admit it, is that the only two drivers on the grid who even vaguely resemble the real racers of old are Michael Schumacher and Fernando Alonso. They're going on about how MS fights (at least until last year) his way from the back of the grid, but in light of performances such as Senna's at Suzuka in both 1988 and 1989, MS' driving was expected of a racing driver ten years ago. When Prost, Mansell, Senna and Piquet were on the grid, anything less than MS' standard of driving would ensure that the driver be relegated to the also-ran book.
These days, when a rookie who's just stepped out of a Kart can take the car within 2 seconds of the polesitter, there are hardly any real balls-to-the-wall racers to speak of. MS is the last of the old guard - actually, he's the last of those who raced against the old guard - and the only other one with the correctly aggressive attitude to real racing (distinction being made here between racing and just driving) is Alonso.
Don't get me wrong - Raikonnen's a good driver, but he's a driver, not a racer - when the chips are down you can always count on him to play the percentages and take the safest, if not most profitable, action. Basically, he's boring. If he was more aggressive, you'd see more of a gap between him and Montoya. -
high 5Originally posted by dragg:i think just the opposite. kimi always drive like there is no tomorrow. even when he is leading he never slows down.
and he is very cool. of course alonso is good too.
as long as schmaucher doesnt win, i am happy.
u know what tho? we haven't actually seen kimi n alonso battle wheel to wheel the whole season. thats something i wanna see! -
yes yes more competitionOriginally posted by HENG@:high 5
u know what tho? we haven't actually seen kimi n alonso battle wheel to wheel the whole season. thats something i wanna see! -
Originally posted by Gedanken:
i disagree. kimi is a racer. The way he opted to push that car at nurburgring was defo a racer's heart t work. if he wanted to play the percentage game, he would have opted to pit, new rules be damned. 8 points are better than 0. No I think Kimi pushes as hard as alonso n MS. Alonso tends to be over aggressive n loses his cool sometimes. Just because a driver is exciting doesn't mean he's the best racer.
You didn't know they've been calling him Half Schumacher for years? For crying out loud, when he switched to Toyota this year, he bingled the company car because, unlike the road cars that BMW supplied, it didn't have a reverse proximity sensor.
The sad truth, loathe as I am to admit it, is that the only two drivers on the grid who even vaguely resemble the real racers of old are Michael Schumacher and Fernando Alonso. They're going on about how MS fights (at least until last year) his way from the back of the grid, but in light of performances such as Senna's at Suzuka in both 1988 and 1989, MS' driving was expected of a racing driver ten years ago. When Prost, Mansell, Senna and Piquet were on the grid, anything less than MS' standard of driving would ensure that the driver be relegated to the also-ran book.
These days, when a rookie who's just stepped out of a Kart can take the car within 2 seconds of the polesitter, there are hardly any real balls-to-the-wall racers to speak of. MS is the last of the old guard - actually, he's the last of those who raced against the old guard - and the only other one with the correctly aggressive attitude to real racing (distinction being made here between racing and just driving) is Alonso.
Don't get me wrong - Raikonnen's a good driver, but he's a [b]driver, not a racer - when the chips are down you can always count on him to play the percentages and take the safest, if not most profitable, action. Basically, he's boring. If he was more aggressive, you'd see more of a gap between him and Montoya.[/b] -
My opinion is that alonso is a better racer. Kimi is a great driver and has a very fast car, but I dun see him as as much a racer as alonso.
In a race, your 1st objective is not to win.. FINISHING the race is your top priority! You can be the fastest 99% of the race.. you are not the winner if you clock a DNF (often demonistrated by kimi). He pushes the car unnecessary.. finishing with a great margin is good for ego.. but not so good for the car.. especially a mclaren!
Mclaren is the fastest cars on track.. but not robust enuf to last the required distance.. I like to see Kimi FINISH the next race.. haha..
Renault team is more strategic. After knowing they cannot win the race.. they conserve their machines and put themselves in a good qualifying position for the next race.
F1 is a championship.. while winning races are important.. winnng the battle is the ultimate goal. -
-sorry.. double post-
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u know that this line u uttered actually shows that kimi is a racer not a driver. like ged said, a driver plays percentage games. Kimi goes for win or bust, this is a very racy psychological mindset. A driver wants to finish the race. A racer wants to win it. Just this line alone can't state more clearly how much of a racer Kimi is. So thanks for supporting Kimi unintentionally.Originally posted by siaokao:My opinion is that alonso is a better racer. Kimi is a great driver and has a very fast car, but I dun see him as as much a racer as alonso.
In a race, your 1st objective is not to win.. FINISHING the race is your top priority! You can be the fastest 99% of the race.. you are not the winner if you clock a DNF (often demonistrated by kimi). He pushes the car unnecessary.. finishing with a great margin is good for ego.. but not so good for the car.. especially a mclaren!
Mclaren is the fastest cars on track.. but not robust enuf to last the required distance.. I like to see Kimi FINISH the next race.. haha..
Renault team is more strategic. After knowing they cannot win the race.. they conserve their machines and put themselves in a good qualifying position for the next race.
F1 is a championship.. while winning races are important.. winnng the battle is the untimate goal. -
esp true with the new rules for cars to last two races...Originally posted by siaokao:My opinion is that alonso is a better racer. Kimi is a great driver and has a very fast car, but I dun see him as as much a racer as alonso.
In a race, your 1st objective is not to win.. FINISHING the race is your top priority! You can be the fastest 99% of the race.. you are not the winner if you clock a DNF (often demonistrated by kimi). He pushes the car unnecessary.. finishing with a great margin is good for ego.. but not so good for the car.. especially a mclaren!
Mclaren is the fastest cars on track.. but not robust enuf to last the required distance.. I like to see Kimi FINISH the next race.. haha..
Renault team is more strategic. After knowing they cannot win the race.. they conserve their machines and put themselves in a good qualifying position for the next race.
F1 is a championship.. while winning races are important.. winnng the battle is the ultimate goal. -
Well, Heng, I'll agree that siaokao's point supports yours, but I'll still disagree with you about Kimi being more of the racer. It appears that a lack of clarity about tyre-change rules had more to do with Kimi's staying out than a "win or die" mentality.Originally posted by HENG@:u know that this line u uttered actually shows that kimi is a racer not a driver. like ged said, a driver plays percentage games. Kimi goes for win or bust, this is a very racy psychological mindset. A driver wants to finish the race. A racer wants to win it. Just this line alone can't state more clearly how much of a racer Kimi is. So thanks for supporting Kimi unintentionally.
What made me sit up and pay attention to Alonso was Monza 2003. Damaged undertray, missing bargeboard, full tank and he was still managing to lap within 1 second of MS, who won the race. On top of that, despite starting from the back of the grid due to an electrical problem, and with all the later problems on his car, he still managed to get back into the points. As Mike Gascoyne commented, ""We radioed Fernando to check everything was OK, he said yes, so we let him continue racing. The car had clearly been damaged, but looking at the lap-times, he didn't seem to notice."
Now THAT's a racer of the likes of Senna and Mansell, and I've never seen Kimi do anything close to that. -
Well, Heng, I'll agree that siaokao's point supports yours, but I'll still disagree with you about Kimi being more of the racer. It appears that a lack of clarity about tyre-change rules had more to do with Kimi's staying out than a "win or die" mentality.Originally posted by HENG@:u know that this line u uttered actually shows that kimi is a racer not a driver. like ged said, a driver plays percentage games. Kimi goes for win or bust, this is a very racy psychological mindset. A driver wants to finish the race. A racer wants to win it. Just this line alone can't state more clearly how much of a racer Kimi is. So thanks for supporting Kimi unintentionally.
What made me sit up and pay attention to Alonso was Monza 2003. Damaged undertray, missing bargeboard, full tank and he was still managing to lap within 1 second of MS, who won the race. On top of that, despite starting from the back of the grid due to an electrical problem, and with all the later problems on his car, he still managed to get back into the points. As Mike Gascoyne commented, ""We radioed Fernando to check everything was OK, he said yes, so we let him continue racing. The car had clearly been damaged, but looking at the lap-times, he didn't seem to notice."
Now THAT's a racer of the likes of Senna and Mansell, and I've never seen Kimi do anything close to that. -
Hows third for a first timer?Originally posted by Gedanken:Well, Heng, I'll agree that siaokao's point supports yours, but I'll still disagree with you about Kimi being more of the racer. It appears that a lack of clarity about tyre-change rules had more to do with Kimi's staying out than a "win or die" mentality.
What made me sit up and pay attention to Alonso was Monza 2003. Damaged undertray, missing bargeboard, full tank and he was still managing to lap within 1 second of MS, who won the race. On top of that, despite starting from the back of the grid due to an electrical problem, and with all the later problems on his car, he still managed to get back into the points. Now THAT's a racer, and I've never seen Kimi do anything close to that. -
A bit less than impressive than Mark Webber's fifth in a Minardi(!)in the same race - the start of Melbourne '03 was such a mess that the results didn't mean all that much. In fact, playing the percentages was exactly how results were gained in that race - how else could a Minardi have finished fifth?Originally posted by SBS9828X:Hows third for a first timer?
Besides, unlike Webber, it wasn't Kimi's first time - his McLaren debut was at the start of his second full F1 season. -
Disagree. I particularly remember Spa 02, where he charged straight on thru Oliver Pani's tyre smoke, because in that split second he could tell from the tyre marks on the track where his toyota would be, and what sort of smoke it was. That, and the way u saw him slice thru traffic yesterday charging hard on Schuey's heels, tells me more that he's a racer than a driver. back in 03, renault had a pretty good car, nowhere as good as a Ferrari but better than the Mc. The fact that alonso had even destroyed his undertray and lost a bargeboard, says something about him being (un)able to keep his cool. The reason we don't see Kimi drive within 1 sec of MS with a car with no undertray, missing bargeboard etc is simply because Kimi remembers the car works better on track than off it.Originally posted by Gedanken:Well, Heng, I'll agree that siaokao's point supports yours, but I'll still disagree with you about Kimi being more of the racer. It appears that a lack of clarity about tyre-change rules had more to do with Kimi's staying out than a "win or die" mentality.
What made me sit up and pay attention to Alonso was Monza 2003. Damaged undertray, missing bargeboard, full tank and he was still managing to lap within 1 second of MS, who won the race. On top of that, despite starting from the back of the grid due to an electrical problem, and with all the later problems on his car, he still managed to get back into the points. As Mike Gascoyne commented, ""We radioed Fernando to check everything was OK, he said yes, so we let him continue racing. The car had clearly been damaged, but looking at the lap-times, he didn't seem to notice."
Now THAT's a racer of the likes of Senna and Mansell, and I've never seen Kimi do anything close to that.
besides, Alonso had 2 incidents which has not impressed me. Actually his unforced error in canada makes it 3, but the previous 2 were him driving right into mark webber's wreckage in brazil 03, and monaco, where he drove out onto the marbles trying to pass ralf. I mean, what was he thinking in monaco? Sure ralfie ought not to get on the gas again too early, but go ask any racer, all of us, down to go karters, know that its suicide to try n lap someone on the marbles. Its no use charging and pushing 100% when u don't know how to reign it in and keep your cool really. A trip into the barriers doesn't help u win a race does it?
Besides, of the 2, who can u truely say drove the wheel off his car? -
Heng, if you will recall, Jos Verstappen ran into Alonso at the start of Monza '03, causing the damage. Heck, I wouldn't even blame Verstappen for that one, seeing as how he himself was trying to avoid hitting Justin Wilson. Put another way, would you say that DC put himself out of yesterday's race?
OK, I'll give it to you that Brazil was not one of Alonso's shining moments, but Monaco? Come on! His tyres were shot and he was doing everything he could (something race drivers ought to do IMHO) to take what he could away from the race.
As for yesterday, I'll disagree with you again - it was a classic case of Kimi playing the percentages. He had a car that was clearly faster than the Ferrari, and all he had to do was hang behind MS until MS pitted and gave him a clear path.
Look, I'm not saying that Kimi was wrong in doing that - the results speak for themselves - but it's not an example of Kimi being a racer. If he was slicing through traffic, he would have overtaken MS - all he did was pass a whole bunch of cars that were being blue-flagged. -
Ah, Heng, now there you've just undermined yourself. Kimi flatspotted that front right, and that was nobody's doing but his own, unlike Alonso at Monza!Originally posted by HENG@:Besides, of the 2, who can u truely say drove the wheel off his car? 
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im talking about monaco 03 for alonso. u remember that moment where alonso, as he was spinning, flipped half the bird? as for monza, i recall alonso destroying his undertray AND destroying that bargeboard as a result of running over a chicane by himself a few laps into the race, certainly had nothing to do with jos.Originally posted by Gedanken:Heng, if you will recall, Jos Verstappen ran into Alonso at the start of Monza '03, causing the damage. Heck, I wouldn't even blame Verstappen for that one, seeing as how he himself was trying to avoid hitting Justin Wilson. Put another way, would you say that DC put himself out of yesterday's race?
OK, I'll give it to you that Brazil was not one of Alonso's shining moments, but Monaco? Come on! His tyres were shot and he was doing everything he could (something race drivers ought to do IMHO) to take what he could away from the race.
As for yesterday, I'll disagree with you again - it was a classic case of Kimi playing the percentages. He had a car that was clearly faster than the Ferrari, and all he had to do was hang behind MS until MS pitted and gave him a clear path.
Look, I'm not saying that Kimi was wrong in doing that - the results speak for themselves - but it's not an example of Kimi being a racer. If he was slicing through traffic, he would have overtaken MS - all he did was pass a whole bunch of cars that were being blue-flagged.
as for yesterday, yea kimi had the faster car, but this is hungary we're talking about. u could see for yourself the chances kimi had to take even just to pass the blue flagged cars. remember this year the aero rules are such that its much harder to follow a car in front closely. the moment u get close, u lose downforce, and u lose ground. Why else do u think MS could keep getting a better run out of the final corner? it wasn't just kimi, alonso was also more or less trying to follow rubens thru, and if alonso was such a racer, why wouldn't he have passed rubens by the end of the race? he only had nosecone damage, and at most a bit of light undertray damage, nothing he couldn't handle, and his car was so much more superior than the ferrari ain't it? Trulli was bloody driving without a whole rear diffuser and he still managed 4th.
Besides, hey if Alonso was such a racer, why didn't he just pass his teammate in Canada instead of whining n Bitching about it on the radio to his team? He had to wait till Fisi's car failed to get past, and then he promptly drove it into the wall. -
but i didn't undermine myself. because alonso certainly caused majority ofthe damage from driving over a chicane at monza.Originally posted by Gedanken:Ah, Heng, now there you've just undermined yourself. Kimi flatspotted that front right, and that was nobody's doing but his own, unlike Alonso at Monza!
Alonso also drove into the wall trying to lap ralf in monaco 03, drove into a tyre in brazil despite waved double yellows, and drove into a wall by himself in canada 05.
he IS impressive, alonso, i liked his performance in imola, but that was very much due to the aero regs as well.
finally, i don't like the way he drives the car.he jerks the wheel and unsettles the car into understeering. urgh. -
btw for monaco, ask any racing driver and they'll tell u its suicide to drive out onto marbles. maybe its survivable so bad on proper racing circuits which are used more often, but at monaco, which is used once a year, and with its armco barriers and no run off area? what WAS he thinking? that is a mistake only beginners would make. and instead of backing off, he gunned it?! on the marbles?! urgh. no use if he has bollocks but no brains.
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Monaco '03? Can't say I remember - didn't Alonso finish fifth after starting from eighth? Lemme see if I can get my hands on the footage.
As for Monza, the car's handling was already off after the job Jos did on it. Was it unforced? Yes. Was it an unforced error? No.
As you noted, Hungary's a bad place to overtake for position - Fisichella only managed to squeeze by Rubens after Rubens got onto the marbles. What I'm saying is that yesterday's race is no reflection of anybody being a real racer - you know Hungary and Monaco are characteristically like that, and that's why some fans have been arguing for both to be taken off the calendar. Again, yesterday, only Albers and the Jordan drivers were being difficult about blue flags - the rest literally went out of their way to keep from holding the leaders back.
Canada? What was he going to do? Take a charge at Fisi and cost Renault all their points right then and there? This isn't Senna/Prost or Mansell/Piquet we're talking about here, and Alonso isn't anywhere as close to dumb as Half. If anything, Fisi was having an uncharacteristically good day out and was enjoying th moment, but he was holding his team mate up. -
BTW, for Canada, Kimi shouldn't have won - somehow, the marshalls forgot to give him a penalty for almost clouting Coulthard out of the pits, and he got at least 25 seconds of lead he didn't deserve.
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well thats motor racing. sometimes u get the luck, sometimes u don't for every canada he didn't deserve to win, there are more that he does. Imola, France, UK and Hockenheim. so lets not talk about the shoulds and should-notsOriginally posted by Gedanken:BTW, for Canada, Kimi shouldn't have won - somehow, the marshalls forgot to give him a penalty for almost clouting Coulthard out of the pits, and he got at least 25 seconds of lead he didn't deserve. -
as for monaco 03, trust me. he did not finish. Was running 3rd when he made that beginner's error.
as for monza, well lets just say that if u know your car's slightly off, perhaps u really ought to bear that in mind and not overcook it eh? I mean, going off and thus destroying his undertray AND a bargeboard wasn't going to help him go faster really. Racing is not just about balls, like i said. Brains are needed as well. Which is why i prefer kimi. I've too often seen alonso's intelligence blanking out. As well as doing the prima donna, such as Bitching n whining about Fisi. Team mate or not, we have a universal mantra in racing.
"If u're faster, overtake. Don't just Bitch that u're faster" -
Heng...it's Monaco last year...Ralf was driving the walrus.
I'd say Räikkönen pushes to make the strategy work. His pace is blinding quick and he rarely makes mistakes (like the one in Montreal '03) but as Goodwin says, it's the team's job to give him a fast and reliable car...it's fast, easy on the tyres and has a big sweet spot but it breaks more easily than the Renault. Alonso's approach makes him look like a bat out of hell by contrast...those were Stoddart's words when he tested for Minardi. -
oh it was last year? my bad. i kept thinking its the same year button had that awful accident in monaco.Originally posted by Kuali Baba:Heng...it's Monaco last year...Ralf was driving the walrus.
I'd say Räikkönen pushes to make the strategy work. His pace is blinding quick and he rarely makes mistakes (like the one in Montreal '03) but as Goodwin says, it's the team's job to give him a fast and reliable car...it's fast, easy on the tyres and has a big sweet spot but it breaks more easily than the Renault. Alonso's approach makes him look like a bat out of hell by contrast...those were Stoddart's words when he tested for Minardi.
Anyways if alonso could keep his cool more i'd like him a lot more. Afterall I would tell my parents im keeping my hair in his style when they point out that my hair's too long. They'd go, look at Kimi his hair's short, then i'd go but yea... look at alonso and trulli...