Sex For Sale
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While the statement that prostitution may not be the best job option for anyone is something I agree with - the assumption that being a prostitute MUST compromise one's dignity is a subjective judgement. You can't rob dignity from someone simply cos of their choices.Originally posted by BabyRS:Prostitution is not the best job option for anyone, in fact - any other job which does not involve the selling of oneself and one's dignity is better than it.
There are many different levels of prostitution since historic times - from 'holy' prostitutes that belong in the temple, the geishas who sell their sexual favours very selectively, the courtesans who entertain and often gain political powers in many arenas - these were ALL prostitutes to some level or another. You can't say they have been undignified - instead they have been revered.
MANY other jobs that doesn't involve selling oneself and yet at the same time, compromises one's dignity much more.
Recommend a book
'Eleven Minutes' by Paulo Coelho - about how a girl becomes a prostitute. It's quite interesting because it tells the story without pity for the protaganist, and without judgement. And perhaps that's what the world needs - more empathy and less judgement. -
This thread makes me want to be a whore...
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x 2. Agree 100%.Originally posted by ShrodingersCat:MANY other jobs that doesn't involve selling oneself and yet at the same time, compromises one's dignity much more.
And perhaps that's what the world needs - more empathy and less judgement. -
I would like your definition of dignity for sake of arguement. I do not believe that many if any prostitute would openly admit to being such at a dinner party of "normal" working people.Originally posted by ShrodingersCat:While the statement that prostitution may not be the best job option for anyone is something I agree with - the assumption that being a prostitute MUST compromise one's dignity is a subjective judgement. You can't rob dignity from someone simply cos of their choices.
There are many different levels of prostitution since historic times - from 'holy' prostitutes that belong in the temple, the geishas who sell their sexual favours very selectively, the courtesans who entertain and often gain political powers in many arenas - these were ALL prostitutes to some level or another. You can't say they have been undignified - instead they have been revered.
MANY other jobs that doesn't involve selling oneself and yet at the same time, compromises one's dignity much more.
Recommend a book 'Eleven Minutes' by Paulo Coelho - about how a girl becomes a prostitute. It's quite interesting because it tells the story without pity for the protaganist, and without judgement. And perhaps that's what the world needs - more empathy and less judgement.
LOL revered?
Paint a prostitute any colour and i am sorry she still is a prostitute, whom are at the mercy of paying clients. It is true that prostitutes have social classes to whom they may serve. But to paint them to be "empowered" is what i disagree with.
Geishas? lol i love it when people think that these girls are more than prostitutes believing how romanatic such a life may be... so powerful. Utter crap, they are call girls to the lords above. If a man with power and money wants these girls they can command it at their pleasure. Dont think for a momement that they can say no.
People forget that a lot of people whom venture into this 'line of work' are usually abused as children, homeless or drug addicted to begin with. And we all know about imported and people smuggled from foreign countries.
Some may start also as innocent fun. The money is good, the clients are respectable and so the excuses make it easy to justify that they are filling a need and that it is harmless.
I do agree that it should be legalised for control. But to accept it as 'society norm' and to glorify it, is another matter.
I would be interested to know from that book why she became a prostitute in the first place. -
I'm not that desperateOriginally posted by alexkusu:whats your best price?
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I'm not meaning my own morality, I mean the general morality.Originally posted by the Bear:but my morals may not be your morals may not by other people's morals...
to force our own morality on other people reeks of fascism..
if you think it is wrong, don't do it for yourself, don't use it, and teach your children that it is wrong...
i would think morality, much like religion, is something personal and each will have their own and should remain so without someone else forcing theirs on anyone else..
But if you think there is no universal morality, then anything (however immoral it can seem to other people, for example incest) people do can be excused and justified as moral by those who do it because they have other morals.
Then there are morals which differ from person to person and usually don't have a serious impact.
Morality is relative, but there is some universal morality.
I don't force anything to anyone, I only present my views. Amen -
I do agree with you that "dignity" is pretty much subjective... and as you said, yes - there are many 'jobs' which can compromise one's dignity to a certain level. Even those that do not involve the sale of one's body can also be 'undignified' in many ways.Originally posted by ShrodingersCat:While the statement that prostitution may not be the best job option for anyone is something I agree with - the assumption that being a prostitute MUST compromise one's dignity is a subjective judgement. You can't rob dignity from someone simply cos of their choices.
There are many different levels of prostitution since historic times - from 'holy' prostitutes that belong in the temple, the geishas who sell their sexual favours very selectively, the courtesans who entertain and often gain political powers in many arenas - these were ALL prostitutes to some level or another. You can't say they have been undignified - instead they have been revered.
MANY other jobs that doesn't involve selling oneself and yet at the same time, compromises one's dignity much more.
Recommend a book 'Eleven Minutes' by Paulo Coelho - about how a girl becomes a prostitute. It's quite interesting because it tells the story without pity for the protaganist, and without judgement. And perhaps that's what the world needs - more empathy and less judgement.
Having said that, I do question this: regardless of the reasons that would make a person choose / get into this line of work, I can't help but wonder - isn't there a better option for them? Does the lure of easily obtained earnings tempt them so much so that they are able to just view what they do in a 'detached' manner? Would it be entirely out of the question for them to earn their keep in the most menial way as compared to their current choice?
I have never believed that a person has "no choice" when it comes to matters and choices pertaining to their life. "No choice", the way I see it, sounds more like: "This may not please many people, but I think it's the most workable option for me".
In certain circles and societies, there are many levels to the "common prostitute". There are those who only would answer a call for a certain amount of money, and there are those who are specially trained as 'entertainers'. As far as I understand it, geishas are the glamourised versions of perhaps the ladies you may meet at Club Kabuki or Orchard KTV... they entertain, drink with you, sing along - and are trained to say the right things to the right people. They are all performers in their own way... and perhaps play mind games better than the suspicious wife. BUT - they are not obliged to have sex with their clients. It is their call, at the end of the day, much like the geishas of yore.
Isn't it also a slight nudge to their dignity - to have to mollycoddle, tease and stroke the egos of men whom they barely know? Perhaps to some, it may be better to have to do that, than to be caught at the dishwashing area of some decrepit coffeeshop. It's all really a matter of perspective.
I have yet to read the book - but I will most definitely get it when I next visit a bookstore... but coincidentally, I have just finished reading "In The Company of the Courtesan" by Sarah Dunant. That was what sparked the thought for this topic... it made me realize that the job scope, throughout the ages - remain very much the same; but the attitude of society has evolved somewhat. For example, it is considered a public secret and perfectly natural for a high ranking official to visit the most sought after courtesans in 15th Century Rome, and these are ladies who aren't only able to satisfy their carnal desires; but also women who are well versed enough to hold a conversation with them. "Revered" may be a strong word, but an appropriate one, in this context, I'd say... when the most well known ladies are visited by the most powerful men, and envied by the common folk.
At the end of the day - no matter how we choose to view the profession, there may be certain aspects that may elude us somewhat.
Just like most everything else in life.
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very much agreed, it is through experience and experimentation due to curiosity that has allowed the world to "advance" to its current stage.Originally posted by BabyRS:I think the keyword that works for almost everything in life is "Moderation".
There has to be a balance (be it views, opinions, or a deed) in life so that we may be aware of what is permissible, or otherwise. So that we are able to distinguish between what is right or wrong, and what works for us, and what doesn't.
As such, society's views will also differ. What would be perfectly acceptable to one, may not hold any grounds with another.
Of course... cast all rational sense to the wind, and without any doubt, faster than we would even think possible, the society and its inhabitants will decay. There always has to be a measure of control... because when human beings are given a free reign over their choices and options, they WILL, to varying degrees, exploit that freedom.
Prostitution is not the best job option for anyone, in fact - any other job which does not involve the selling of oneself and one's dignity is better than it. It is often viewed as 'taking the easy way out' - many who are hard pressed cannot resist the temptation and lure of easy money without much effort and hard work. But it still does serve a purpose in life... there are many men who may have to pay for sex in order to sate their sexual desires, for only reasons that they are aware of.
however, on the issue of dignity, i feel that it is up to the person him/herself, not because it is his/her choice, but because he/she is brought up the way he/she has been brought up. you need love to understand hate, and vice versa. -
Perhaps in varying degrees, yes... but I'm in your corner.Originally posted by coffeeortea:however, on the issue of dignity, i feel that it is up to the person him/herself, not because it is his/her choice, but because he/she is brought up the way he/she has been brought up. you need love to understand hate, and vice versa. -
well, i've a little bit more to add..
for those who use "morality" into this debate.. consider these:
in ancient Sumer of Babylonia, they had the Goddess Ishtar, who was known as the Mother of Harlots, Har or Hora... every woman in Babylonia was expected to go to the temple and become "ishtaritu" (if i remember correctly) and offer themselves to male worshippers... it was considered a sacred rite which was thought to help attain union with the divine...
then there is Aphrodite of Greek mythology... whose temples had priestesses who were pretty much like the ishtaritu of Babylonia
in Hinduism, there is also worship of Shiva, the Lord of the Dance... in the temples, there are devadasis of "servants of god" who not only performed the dances as a tribute to Shiva, the women honor the deities and convey their divine female energy to male worshippers through ritual sex... this has since been outlawed in India but it is known that this law remains almost unenforced..
so.. what is morality to us, may not be morality to others.. and what is morality to others, may be outright immoral to us...
morality is personal.. so, if a person chooses to be a streetwalker and has no qualms about it, should we judge them? and if morality is about answering to a Higher Power or our conscience, do we have any right to be theirs? -
Sorry, I know next to nothing about Greek Mythology nor Hinduism, neither do I know of any bombastic terminologies with regards to this topic, but I am still going to talk about Morals.
Besides, what you quoted sounds more like religious rites than universal moral values. 
A person is entitled to make his/her own choices, but once again, that does not make their choices right per se.
Like it or not, there are still universal moral values like filial piety, diligence, not stealing, not cheating, not committing adultery.
Someone may choose to commit adultery, but does that make adultery a moral choice?
Someone decides to embezzle funds, does that make his action a moral choice?
Child pornography, Child prostitution... some people indulge in that... it's their choice that they're entitled to, does that make it moral?
If choice is blown out of proportion, and you forget that everyone's actions will affect a few other people, you will become extremely permissive.
Why do we clamp down on pedophiles? Isn't that their freedom to choose? Why would the police and govt even want to get involved in this? Afterall, who are they to impose their moral values on the pedophiles?
If moral issues are that personal and all about the almighty choice, the sanctimonious choice, we might as well disassemble all police and anti-crime organisations because aren't all crimes immoral acts in one way or another?
What we can change, is our response towards the people.
What we cannot change, is the basic right and wrong behind certain moral values. -
your right may not be my right..
that's what i am trying to say...
by saying that your "right" means that my contrary belief must be dead wrong, you're indulging in supermassiveblackhole syndrome.. the whole universe revolves around you...
Lau Lee, ruthless as he is, said something true which must be respected: your right to swing your arms ends where my nose starts..
therefore, you have the right to swing (pun intended) until someone else other than the people involved are affected...
here, prostitution is basically a victimless "crime" if and only if the prostitute does it of his/her/its own free will.. and the client goes of his/her/its free will too
again, the quip: prostitution is basically sex and free enterprise rolled into one.. which one of those two things are you against?
but seriously, look at the other "examples" you came up with.. there were victims.. where is the victim in prostitution? one chose to be a prostitute, the other chose to be a client..
the ignorance to mythology?? i did not ask you to look into and delve into them.. just showing that the morality of your choice may be the immorality of another lot..
so if you chose to force your morality on them, what if you were elsewhere and they chose to force their morality on you?
btw, the Taleban was great at that
which goes back to the "sex for sale" bit... if and only if the prostitute chose that way out of his/her/its own free will, let it be... it doesn't concern anyone else except himself/herself/itself and the client... and it should remain that way..
btw, would you want anyone to go police your bedroom? -
One day, more than a year ago, I made a friend... with a prostitute.Originally posted by ShrodingersCat:While the statement that prostitution may not be the best job option for anyone is something I agree with - the assumption that being a prostitute MUST compromise one's dignity is a subjective judgement. You can't rob dignity from someone simply cos of their choices.
There are many different levels of prostitution since historic times - from 'holy' prostitutes that belong in the temple, the geishas who sell their sexual favours very selectively, the courtesans who entertain and often gain political powers in many arenas - these were ALL prostitutes to some level or another. You can't say they have been undignified - instead they have been revered.
MANY other jobs that doesn't involve selling oneself and yet at the same time, compromises one's dignity much more.
Recommend a book 'Eleven Minutes' by Paulo Coelho - about how a girl becomes a prostitute. It's quite interesting because it tells the story without pity for the protaganist, and without judgement. And perhaps that's what the world needs - more empathy and less judgement.
Even after I found out her profession, did I condemn her? No.
Did I try to empathise? Yes.
Do I think what she exercised her own choice? Yes.
Do I think what she's doing is moral? No.
I'm a nurse, and if I had to provide nursing care to someone in police custody because he is a pedophile / rapist, would I do so? Yes.
Do I withhold proper treatment because I think he has committed an immoral act? No.
Do I think what he did was moral? No.
I think this is the best way I can think of to illustrate my stand.
And Bear, just because I do not share the same views as you re. moral values, doesn't give you the go-ahead to insinuate that I'm a fascist and what-not other non-complimentary, name-calling, derogatory terms. By doing so, you are already infringing upon my freedom of choice to decide what is moral and immoral, aren't you? And clamping down hard and pretty intolerably on my opinions too! -
Originally posted by Kan_i:
Well said KAN_i
unfortunately as you know yourself that is not the defination of morality. Morality is not a personal view, what is deemed immorale is dependant on the society that you live in.
Sex for sale in any culture is immorale by standing. But more liberated minded people or those that want a quick buck will allow it to go on. Just because prostitution is the "oldest" profession does not make it right. Thuggery and murder are 2 other oldest professions... do we then say yeah lets do it!
It is important to understand that there is a clear distinction between rape/child molestors and consenting people wanting to indulge in sex. Having prostitutions will not mean there are less crimes of rape and child abuse. Infact you can alway find people who will argue it increases these crimes. Like the porn arguement.
[b]OK let me ask people here this question
If this trade is then deemed "normal" and "morale" in society... will you be fine if the SO in your life visits these places on a regular basis? [/b] -
Once again, the prostitute made her choice. Fine. I still do not think it's right, but I'm entitled to my own opinion. As are you. As is she.Originally posted by the Bear:your right may not be my right..
that's what i am trying to say...
by saying that your "right" means that my contrary belief must be dead wrong, you're indulging in supermassiveblackhole syndrome.. the whole universe revolves around you...
Lau Lee, ruthless as he is, said something true which must be respected: your right to swing your arms ends where my nose starts..
therefore, you have the right to swing (pun intended) until someone else other than the people involved are affected...
here, prostitution is basically a victimless "crime" if and only if the prostitute does it of his/her/its own free will.. and the client goes of his/her/its free will too
again, the quip: prostitution is basically sex and free enterprise rolled into one.. which one of those two things are you against?
but seriously, look at the other "examples" you came up with.. there were victims.. where is the victim in prostitution? one chose to be a prostitute, the other chose to be a client..
the ignorance to mythology?? i did not ask you to look into and delve into them.. just showing that the morality of your choice may be the immorality of another lot..
so if you chose to force your morality on them, what if you were elsewhere and they chose to force their morality on you?
btw, the Taleban was great at that
which goes back to the "sex for sale" bit... if and only if the prostitute chose that way out of his/her/its own free will, let it be... it doesn't concern anyone else except himself/herself/itself and the client... and it should remain that way..
btw, would you want anyone to go police your bedroom?
And you are being myopic if you claim that there are no victims in the world of prostitution. Have you not heard of children being kidnapped into prostitution? Young ladies being promised better jobs in other countries only to be trafficked into other countries and forced to work in prostitution rings? It's all in the news!! So what... they all do not exist??
And you're not listening... I never once forced my views on my friend, who is a professional prostitute. So stop your accusations!
And that last note about the police going into my bedroom... that was totally uncalled for. And I certainly hope you're not insinuating that I'm some illegal sex worker!
You don't spar like a gentleman at all!
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Errmmm...I think bear could be referring to the "religious police" found in some islamic states who quite literally barge into people's hotelrooms or bedrooms to check that no "immorality" has been committed behind closed doors(which in this case, can be something we consider a non-issue like close proximity behind closed doors)?Originally posted by Rhonda:And that last note about the police going into my bedroom... that was totally uncalled for. And I certainly hope you're not insinuating that I'm some illegal sex worker!
You don't spar like a gentleman at all!
There are some recent disturbing developments in malaysia with regards to forcing the same religious laws onto the malaysian chinese.
Then again, maybe I'm wrong.
*puts on helmet* and runs out of the thread -
For those who hate prostitutes.
If you have never patronise a prostitue; have you ever talked to one? Do you have a friend who is a prostitute? If you did, you will find that they are just like you and me. They have religious beliefs; they are happy and sad some times. They have dreams. They have problems. They fear, they love, they hate...
If they are not forced.... who are we to judge?
Prostitutes are human beings just like you and I Please don't talk about them like they are from outer space or lower than you and I. It is not like they are criminals that harm people in a violent manner or rob people out of their possesions.
Don't be a bigot. -
One more thing. Morality is something what you can't force on others (in the sense that it is not possible to force it), because morality is inside us, it's comes from the inside, it's our inner attitude, creed.Originally posted by the Bear:but my morals may not be your morals may not by other people's morals...
to force our own morality on other people reeks of fascism..
if you think it is wrong, don't do it for yourself, don't use it, and teach your children that it is wrong...
i would think morality, much like religion, is something personal and each will have their own and should remain so without someone else forcing theirs on anyone else.. -
On an off-related note, one of my favourite moments on television, from the TV series The West Wing:
President Josiah Bartlet: Good. I like your show. I like how you call homosexuality an abomination.
Dr. Jenna Jacobs: I don't say homosexuality is an abomination, Mr. President. The Bible does.
President Josiah Bartlet: Yes it does. Leviticus.
Dr. Jenna Jacobs: 18:22.
President Josiah Bartlet: Chapter and verse. I wanted to ask you a couple of questions while I have you here. I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleared the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be? While thinking about that, can I ask another? My Chief of Staff Leo McGarry insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police? Here's one that's really important because we've got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7. If they promise to wear gloves, can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point? Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother John for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads? Think about those questions, would you? One last thing: while you may be mistaking this for your monthly meeting of the Ignorant Tight-Ass Club, in this building, when the President stands, nobody sits. -
i went for a community project trip to a very poor village in northern thailand. Most people are in agriculture - however, the land is no longer sufficient to provide income for the people in the community. Many of the men either come to Singapore to work as construction workers, or those who can't manage to find jobs, simply waste their time drinking during non harvesting seasons.
I was surprised to find that its the women who support their families in this village. Although they have primary education, it isn't enough for them to find good jobs in the nearby town or city. Each family can have 10, 15 members all depending on the mother, or perhaps the eldest sister. Can a salesgirl job support the entire family? I doubt it.
One of the houses who hosted us has an 'auntie' who has a Singapore 'husband'. He supports her and visits her occasionally. In the time he is not around, she has a real Thai husband. Whenever her Singaporean 'husband' visits, the real husband moves out. Its basically an open secret that only the Singaporean husband doesn't know about. Is she prostituting herself for her material needs?
Another family has a mother who work as a 'masseur', though really it is a euphemism for a prostitute. Her husband is an alcoholic. Rural families rarely practice contraception, and they have quite a few children, plus aged parents waiting for support. She is the only bread winner of the family - but no education, from farming community - really limits her job choices.
A thai social worker friend told me sadly many of the young girls who worked with in the school will eventually gravitate to the sex industry - because of lack of other reasonable choices and opportunities, and familial responsibilities.
If the definition of dignity is a quality that is deemed worthy of respect. Can anyone say these women does not deserve that respect and do not have a dignity? Between starvation and prostitution - who is going to argue the standards of morality??
Sure - there are some who chose prostitution in search of the easy life, the LV bag. But there are many paths that lead someone down to prostitution - and unless one have been at that cross roads where you have been hard pressed to make a choice - who has the right to judge them?
As for powerful courtesans in history - we have many men in history that people revere but who have sold their soul for success and power - is selling your soul for success and power any more or less than selling your body? -
speak for yourself.Originally posted by dragg:prostitution is part and parcel of any society.
there is nothing shameful about it.
all human being need sex. -
i agree. what defines selling yr dignity? to be honest working in a typical 9-5 office in a souless manner, u know, like in dilbert, is pretty undignified.Originally posted by ShrodingersCat:As for powerful courtesans in history - we have many men in history that people revere but who have sold their soul for success and power - is selling your soul for success and power any more or less than selling your body? -
i think the cult leader doesn't get it...
this said a lot...Is this a good thing? I definitely do not think so! Back then, when values were upheld more rampantly, the fact that stigmas were attached to certain immoral doings meant that there was a sort of societal 'check' and people think twice about committing such acts because of the sheer fear of being stigmatised. That in itself was a sort of self-check and societal 'preventive measure'.
and the fact is that, like most, "prostitution is immoral = prostitution is evil = prostitutes should be stigmatised"
It's folly to think that one's actions will only affect the doer alone. In certain situations, what's black is black, and what's white is white... gray areas should be the exception rather than the rule in certain issues.
you can still medically treat a person if you judge the person as "low and shameful"
but let's bring another tack on this: recently, Exxon-Mobil generated US$36 billion in profits... to do that, they gouged the world, the destroyed pristine areas, they sent their people into virgin areas to con the people out of their own land so that they can drill, they caused crapload of pollution, they caused the deprivation and poverty of a lot of people in a merciless and pathological pursuit of profit...
yet, these people are worshipped as Business Gods.. yet they raped and pillage
a person who chooses the world's oldest profession, not harming anyone else except maybe his/her/its own body is considered "immoral" ? consensual sex is okay? but consensual sex for profit isn't?
well, let's choose to disagree... simply because i do not want anyone judging me, i will not judge others...
i do not want to judge anyone.. the only person i judge is myself... -
cult leader???
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And I think you aren't listening because your voice is too loud and drowns out all else that I've been trying to say. Enough... I'm exasperated enough.Originally posted by the Bear:i think the cult leader doesn't get it...
this said a lot...
and the fact is that, like most, "prostitution is immoral = prostitution is evil = prostitutes should be stigmatised"
you can still medically treat a person if you judge the person as "low and shameful"
but let's bring another tack on this: recently, Exxon-Mobil generated US$36 billion in profits... to do that, they gouged the world, the destroyed pristine areas, they sent their people into virgin areas to con the people out of their own land so that they can drill, they caused crapload of pollution, they caused the deprivation and poverty of a lot of people in a merciless and pathological pursuit of profit...
yet, these people are worshipped as Business Gods.. yet they raped and pillage
a person who chooses the world's oldest profession, not harming anyone else except maybe his/her/its own body is considered "immoral" ? consensual sex is okay? but consensual sex for profit isn't?
well, let's choose to disagree... simply because i do not want anyone judging me, i will not judge others...
i do not want to judge anyone.. the only person i judge is myself...
WHEN did I ever ever EVER say prostitutes are to be condemned or its equivalent? If so, why am I friends with one of them?
I think you're practising selective reading so I give up.