People who have not heard of Christ
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first of all....As mentioned b4...r we going into the house of feng sui and bang ppl there?? telling them what they believe is so not logical ? U have ur believe..we have our own. Billgates success lie in feng sui? Ang moh dunno feng sui, they position their wall, chair and doors all wrongly..that's y they are so poor today???? ppl who read fung sui in the streat..so good in telling ppl what to do..why dun they teach themselves first on how to generate wealth rather than walking down the streat begging for "business".
U want to bang people there, go lor... I am not stopping u. I am not a taoist, believes in feng shui or buddhist too. Bang, please bang HOFS. Ask them all your questions. Do it. I believes in science. Bang science lahSo ..no one call u to believe in Christ. Why so frust? U believe in karma right....so no one is stopping u. Ur aim of reading the bible is to find flaws and misinterpreting them to gang bang christians, not to understand it.
Do I sound frustrated ? I think u should be the one tat checks your emotions first. My questions r not wrong. If u seek to understand the bible, u should really consider those questions seriously...I also got some questions. U say achieve nirvana...ok..who set the standard?? who is the one that say ok ..u achieve nirvana? Nature?? buddha.?? then who granted buddha nirvana?? nature?? What is this whole thing of nature? How u define nature? So..nature can think? nature can decide? nature says that u next round will become pig...or young handsome prince?? ..since u dun believe in GOd right....the " thing" that is going to judge u..is nature?? so.,.if nature can think, decide and pass judgement and upgrade a soul to achieve nirvana...so what exactly is this nature...Mother Nature???
I know nuts about nivana too. U want to find problems with it, do it. I don't care.There are alot of things to argue about ..which we DONT WANT TO DO IT..becoz of one thing call RESPECT. If i would enter house of feng sui and tell ppl what u believe is crap..u think i can CHANGE the ENTIRE FORUMITES view...u know u cant...but u r doing something quite similar here...i believe u have "mens rea" b4 u procede right.
please do it. i implore u.ya almost forgot..what about this Hitler thing...y make it sound so difficult. simple..i can say i kill u for Christ sake...i can say i am a christian..i can SAY WHATEVER i want...so??? what;s the big deal...when i die ...then got judgement day lah. No one here is God..only He knows what is right. Actus reas and mens rea my fren. Actus reas is a tick for him liao...mens rea..only God knows.
But then why deny he is a christ believer. He says he believes in christ etc, why want to deny it ? U know better than hitler on his religion ? u wanna leave everything to judgement ay, then I guess u can wait till the cow comes home and nothing wil happen.let me tell u one simple thing...which is..u can type a 10 thousand pages long of essay...BUT IT WILL NOT EVEN SHAKEN The FAITH OF ANY CHRISTIANS in this thread. Amen. and peace to u.
Wow... u must really have the gift of clairvoyance to know everybody who read these threads. -
Originally posted by TrU PeAce (^0*)v:ya almost forgot..what about this Hitler thing...y make it sound so difficult. simple..i can say i kill u for Christ sake...i can say i am a christian..i can SAY WHATEVER i want...so??? what;s the big deal...when i die ...then got judgement day lah. No one here is God..only He knows what is right. Actus reas and mens rea my fren. Actus reas is a tick for him liao...mens rea..only God knows.
true... no different from Samuel L Jackson's character in Pulp Fiction where he quotes scripture "...the vengence of the Lord is upon you... " and bang blows the guy's head off with his pistol.Originally posted by laurence82:Regarding your view on crashing into HOFS, just would like to point out, there has been cases people who belong to this forum gatecrashed into HOFS and Light of Atlantis (during its early days) and, preached Christianity and quoted sections from the Bibles. There were some discussions, but there were also blatant telling off people from these forums their practices are wrong, using the Bible as the authority.
Well, that was some time ago, so i would not point out the relevant topics.
unfortunately this may have happened so long ago. I fully agree and support your stance, Larry, that these preaching are wrong. Unfortunately, religious zealots are everywhere. I, for one, would not go into these forums to blatantly quote scriptures to condemn them. I would encourage all Christians NOT to do it, as much as some of the topics posted in these forums are not in tandem with our Christian beliefs. Everyone is entitled to his opinion and when it differs, let's not argue about it in this faceless way, walk away and agree to disagree.
SIS? Well, it had all been establish that his manner of writing is extremely jarring and uncouth. This is not just my opinion but many had stated such. Many regular Christian forumites, include my humble and unlearned self had already decided not to "challenge" his "enlightened" stance as it is an endless loop of pointless rebuttals.
I will leave it to all forumites to consider deeply whether SIS
1. is truly presenting scientific and logically conclusions who quotes indiscriminately from athestic sources,
2. an eloquent debater inspite of his lacking in the ability to write and spell coherently which makes understanding his writing extremely difficult, (this, BTW is not a personal attack, but a factual statement when one reads his notes.)
3. or whether he has his personal vendetta on berating Christians as low IQed stupid misguided individuals.
If he thinks that Christians are stupid misguided individuals, it's ok. After all Scripture says in Psalms 14:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Of course, this verse has no meaning to people who do not believe in the Bible, so it would be OK to them.... -
Yeah, the Bible makes no sense until you submit to God's authority. So we look at this statement with regards to the topic raised. Is the bible relevant to those who have not heard of Christ?
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SIS? Well, it had all been establish that his manner of writing is extremely jarring and uncouth. This is not just my opinion but many had stated such. Many regular Christian forumites, include my humble and unlearned self had already decided not to "challenge" his "enlightened" stance as it is an endless loop of pointless rebuttals.
Yah yah yah... yakety yak yakety yak... all u have to say about me r again personal attack on me as an individual instead of on the points I had raised. I have probably been attacked in such fashion for the many times by u. Tat in my impression, r is not only low class but also senseless and show your depth in such matters.
I will leave it to all forumites to consider deeply whether SIS
1. is truly presenting scientific and logically conclusions who quotes indiscriminately from athestic sources,
2. an eloquent debater inspite of his lacking in the ability to write and spell coherently which makes understanding his writing extremely difficult, (this, BTW is not a personal attack, but a factual statement when one reads his notes.)
3. or whether he has his personal vendetta on berating Christians as low IQed stupid misguided individuals.
1) Is the points tat I had raised without logics and meaning ? Let the readers determine if the points I had raised up logical conclusions or not. Frankly most of the points tat I had raised up come from me myself only, not from websites. However for the other people, they tend to come up with faulty answers from their own religious website in which they have limited understanding on it. When question about it, they will jump at u for not "accepting" your answer.
2) And on the point of "lacking in the ability to write and spell coherently which makes understanding his writing extremely difficult", surely tat would have work against me during my replies. If u fail to understand wat I am trying to say, how can u come to the conclusion of me being an "eloquent debater". Just think about it, do we have to write proper queen's english in order to write in such forums ? Isn't writing such tat it is understandable be enough ?
3) Again u wanna raise my agenda for berating christians. Then again, wat is your agenda for berating me ? Wat is your personal vendetta for doing tat ?If he thinks that Christians are stupid misguided individuals, it's ok. After all Scripture says in Psalms 14:1
Why would it have no meaning ? It surely meant meaning to u, a christian isn't it ? If someone insult u vulgarly on your parents in a dialect u do not understand, does it means it has no meaning to u and u should let them carry on their verbal assault on u ? On the issue here, it is on wat is the intentions and implications of the speaker or writer tat is of utmost importance. From the passage, obviously your intentions is again another verbal abuse on me. As such, why will it ever be "okay" for me ?
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Of course, this verse has no meaning to people who do not believe in the Bible, so it would be OK to them....Yeah, the Bible makes no sense until you submit to God's authority. So we look at this statement with regards to the topic raised. Is the bible relevant to those who have not heard of Christ?
Why not ? it regards to your ancestors well being isn't it ? It is certainly relevant to everyone. -
Psalms 14:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalms 111:10
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
Obviously the definition of stupidity and smartness is very different from some other conventional philosophies.
1 Corinthians 3: 18-19
Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
For that I will be the fool, or the low class one, or even the senseless one. -
Tat seems to be a pretty weak argument. Other religions scriptures r probably claiming u r fools for not believing in them. Since nobody can believes in all religions, so everyone r fools ? The real fools r the one tat jumps into a religion without verification. -
No problem with me.... If all who has a religion are fools to you, so be it... no big deal.Originally posted by stupidissmart:
Tat seems to be a pretty weak argument. Other religions scriptures r probably claiming u r fools for not believing in them. Since nobody can believes in all religions, so everyone r fools ? The real fools r the one tat jumps into a religion without verification.
Since nobody (including you) in the universe has ALL the answers to ALL THINGS, then perhaps we all are fools one point or other. Again, it does not matter. -
Is it wrong for me to tell you about the issue from the Catholic point of view? Did I force you to believe me? You tell me.Originally posted by Icemoon:Just wondering .. SM always like to quote from obviously Catholic sites .. but can he tell good historicity from bad historicity? Is he assuming all Catholic authors give good historicity?
Does he examine the 'history' from another perspective? Like from the eyes of the Protestant and Jew.
He is like feeding propaganda to us.
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Oh ya .. forgot you're not telling objective history .. heehee
Yea .. I've no problem if you're just presenting the Catholic position. -
eh..we out of topic
forget the ancestors
what is each denomination's views on non-believers anyway? -
Please discuss with a sensitive and discerning mind.
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what is each denomination's views on non-believers anyway?
For christainity or catholic, all people who had a different religion or free thinkers get roasted in hell. No matter who u r, wat u do or how many good deeds u have done, u get roasted in hell. Even those who had never heard of christainity or too young to know about religion before they die also go there.
Anyone wanna challenge tis statement ? -
X2Originally posted by stupidissmart:For christainity or catholic, all people who had a different religion or free thinkers get roasted in hell. No matter who u r, wat u do or how many good deeds u have done, u get roasted in hell. Even those who had never heard of christainity or too young to know about religion before they die also go there. -
I can assure you, there are many christian fundamentalists who believe in the automatic salvation of infants who died young. It is a slippery slope argument, how young is young .. heeheeOriginally posted by stupidissmart:Even those who had never heard of christainity or too young to know about religion before they die also go there.
Anyone wanna challenge tis statement ? -
Scriptually, for salvation, christ is a necessary criteria. Young or not, it is auto classified to hell.
A senseless and unfair criteria if u ask me. -
Not necessary. Christians always like to taunt unbelievers, if you can find one sinless person, then he can earn his way to salvation.
Always remember sin is the cause of everything. Believing in Jesus Christ makes no sense unless you see the reason behind it. -
Not necessary. Christians always like to taunt unbelievers, if you can find one sinless person, then he can earn his way to salvation.
According to the bible, u have already sinned when u r borned. Who is not borned out ? God make people conceive, yet punish people because they r conceived out. He might as well say breathing, drinking or eating is a sin.
Ps. 51:5 "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."Always remember sin is the cause of everything. Believing in Jesus Christ makes no sense unless you see the reason behind it.
Then why restrict non believer or people from other religion from salvation ? Believe in jesus christ as an important criteria makes no sense. There is already a faulty system of classifying sin -
Originally posted by Icemoon:Not necessary. Christians always like to taunt unbelievers, if you can find one sinless person, then he can earn his way to salvation.
Always remember sin is the cause of everything. Believing in Jesus Christ makes no sense unless you see the reason behind it.
"Taunt" may be a word that is on the hard side. I'd say that Christians preach that message because this is the truth as we see. Emphasing on the the phrase: the truth as we see. Objectively speaking, anything that is perceived as the truth to any individual, it is likely that this individual will reject anything else contrary to that "truth". It is simply a natural process not limited to Christianity.
I do want to state that there are Christians who go overboard in the "preaching" as well as many of these with the holier-than-thou attitude.
"Believing in Jesus Christ makes no sense unless you see the reason behind it." - this is a good statement.... -
Not necessary. Christians always like to taunt unbelievers, if you can find one sinless person, then he can earn his way to salvation.
Another point to note... from revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death
He already classfied unbeliever to be as sinful as murderers, sexually immoral and liars. There is no possible way tat a sinless non-believer can go to salvation even if he is borned from a rock and acts exactly like wat jesus had done when he is living. It is the same as saying u can pass a gate only if your waist size is thicker than 1 m and thinner than 1 mm at the same time.
Even Jesus is borned from Mary and lies to other when he is on earth. Even he fails to be sinless -
Jesus tells lies? You want to give us some examples?
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Howdy Mac....Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Jesus tells lies? You want to give us some examples?
No point lah... where he is concern, he questions the authenticity and authority of the Bible, then he says Jesus tells lies, then he says people who believe in God are stupid.
So no end lah... leave it....
I think the Christians here (Catholics included) have better things to do, like helping people with genuine concerns. -
John 7:8-10
"Go up to the feast yourselves; I do not go up to this feast because My time has not yet fully come." Having said these things to them, He stayed in Galilee. But when His brothers had gone up to the feast, then He Himself also went up, not publicly, but as if, in secret.
Question is, in the end he did go to the feast. Why does he lie about not going for it ? Hasn't he already lied to his "brothers" ?
Mathew 16:27-28
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
Tat statement is again false as all the people there did taste death about 2000 ago and did not manage to see the son of man coming in his kingdom. He never did come till now.
Another incident is he telling people he is the son of god, and tell other he is god himself. He can either be son of god or god himself, not both. How can u be your father and his son at the same time ? -
For christainity or catholic, all people who had a different religion or free thinkers get roasted in hell. No matter who u r, wat u do or how many good deeds u have done, u get roasted in hell. Even those who had never heard of christainity or too young to know about religion before they die also go there.
Anyone wanna challenge tis statement ?
Mathew 16:27-28
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
Tat statement is again false as all the people there did taste death about 2000 ago and did not manage to see the son of man coming in his kingdom. He never did come till now.
Another incident is he telling people he is the son of god, and tell other he is god himself. He can either be son of god or god himself, not both. How can u be your father and his son at the same time ? [/b][/quote]
Can i ask u one question....why do u engage urself in "attacking" christianity?
Going to hell in the first place...is decided by God. First...if u dun believe in God...then dun believe there is a place call hell. U shd be more afraid of becoming a pig rather than going to hell. If u dun believe in christianity...y CARE?? As for me...if u say i dun believe in buddhist...i will become a pig, a snail, a fly next life...i DUN GIVE A Damn...so..y u care so much??
For us christian, we view God as our Father too. I give u an example...a logic of my own why no matter how many good deeds u do...but if u turn away from God u will go to hell. U have a father right. So just say, u go out to the society, help the poor, bring the grandma cross the road, spend ur time with the unfortunate...BUT U dont respect and acknowledge ur mom and dad as ur parents. So...u think ur father will care how u treat the other ppl?? will he call u a good son? the answer is no. And in christian...we view God as our Father.
2nd, u can be a murderer or a robber. U are HATED by the entire society. U r scorned. But...u love ur dad. U respect ur dad. And ur dad LOVES u. If u would kneel down to ur dad and say..dad ...i am truely sorry for all the things i had done...U think ur dad wont forgive u? The society might wan to slaughter u...but ur dad will still forgive and love u. again...we view God as our lovingly and forgiving father.
How can Jesus be a son and at the same time a father. U know what is triple point, euthetic point?? heard of them?? want to argue in science?
In case if u dont know...each element or compound have a triple point or euthetic point. Where by different phases can occur at the same time. Steel have authesitic, martensitic, bainite..and all kind of phases. To keep u simple..water can be solid, liquid and gas...but no matter what FORM they are in....are the water??? are they H2O? So..if something so simple can exist in 3 state...y not GOD?
There will be endless arguement..or so call exchange of ideas with u...becoz u just DONT BELIEVE in GOD. -
Can i ask u one question....why do u engage urself in "attacking" christianity?
Why do I engage in attacking christainity ? The answer is the same as why does some christian want people of other religion to follow their religion. My intentions is to let people learn the truth, to let them be really free.
Going to hell in the first place...is decided by God. First...if u dun believe in God...then dun believe there is a place call hell. U shd be more afraid of becoming a pig rather than going to hell. If u dun believe in christianity...y CARE?? As for me...if u say i dun believe in buddhist...i will become a pig, a snail, a fly next life...i DUN GIVE A Damn...so..y u care so much??
About hell, I am asking u why do u believe in a god tat is unfair, thus cease to be perfect. Throughout the bible it states tat god is like a rock and being perfect when he fails to be fair and is egoistic. Why don't u care about it ? Don't u realise tat everything u know about him may be wrong and it is all a lie spurned out by some people 2000 years ago. Why do u insist tat the bible is right when it has shown itself to be full of contradictions and illogical.For us christian, we view God as our Father too. I give u an example...a logic of my own why no matter how many good deeds u do...but if u turn away from God u will go to hell. U have a father right. So just say, u go out to the society, help the poor, bring the grandma cross the road, spend ur time with the unfortunate...BUT U dont respect and acknowledge ur mom and dad as ur parents. So...u think ur father will care how u treat the other ppl?? will he call u a good son? the answer is no. And in christian...we view God as our Father.
If u ask me, as a parent I will forgive my son even if he turn against from me. When I find he is doing good deeds, helping society and generally a contribution to society, I will still be proud of him even though he do not acknowledge me as his parents. Tis is particularly true since I DO NOT GIVE concrete evidence tat I am his parents as well. Any tom dick and harry can claim he or she is the parent of this child, but he surely can'y believe in all of them.
For god, it seems tat u can treat him as a father, but he treats u as a slave. Throughout the bible he always consider u as his slave. Tis is even restated by jesus tat u r god's slave and he is a harsh master.2nd, u can be a murderer or a robber. U are HATED by the entire society. U r scorned. But...u love ur dad. U respect ur dad. And ur dad LOVES u. If u would kneel down to ur dad and say..dad ...i am truely sorry for all the things i had done...U think ur dad wont forgive u? The society might wan to slaughter u...but ur dad will still forgive and love u. again...we view God as our lovingly and forgiving father.
Even if he creates all autrocities and he do not acknowledge me, I will still consider him as my child. From tis point doesn't tat make god seems unfair ? He not only do not care about his other "children" who do not believe in him for a good reason, he even went to the point of meting punishments on them like pouring acid on them and burning them when they r unaware. How loving and forgiving is tis "father" ?How can Jesus be a son and at the same time a father. U know what is triple point, euthetic point?? heard of them?? want to argue in science?
Yah, I know the triple point, but wat has tat got to do with jesus ? I mean the triple point means a material can become a liquid, solid and gas at tis conditions... wat has it got to do with father and son ? Why talk about property of material to relationship ? Frankly I see little or no connections AT ALL.In case if u dont know...each element or compound have a triple point or euthetic point. Where by different phases can occur at the same time. Steel have authesitic, martensitic, bainite..and all kind of phases. To keep u simple..water can be solid, liquid and gas...but no matter what FORM they are in....are the water??? are they H2O? So..if something so simple can exist in 3 state...y not GOD?
Tat is dumb. Material is able to hold both properties at the same time. U might as well say a your bag is red and white at the same time, not completely red or white which is possible. For father and son, it is a property which is mutually exclusive. U can not hold both properties at the same time. A father has a child, and tis child cannot be his own father. It is mutually exclusive. It is like u only have a hand. It can either be a left hand or right hand, and not a left AND right hand. If there is a left AND right hand it just meant u have 2 hands isn't it ? How can it become 1 hand ? Doesn't tat sounds like a contradiction or a lie ? Either your waistline is fatter than 30 cm or thinner than 30 cm. It cannot be fatter and thinner than 30 cm at the same time. If u say it is fatter and thinner than 30 cm at the same time, it can only meant u r measuring different part of your body using different measurement system or on different people isn't it ? -
In case if u dont know...each element or compound have a triple point or euthetic point. Where by different phases can occur at the same time. Steel have authesitic, martensitic, bainite..and all kind of phases. To keep u simple..water can be solid, liquid and gas...but no matter what FORM they are in....are the water??? are they H2O? So..if something so simple can exist in 3 state...y not GOD?
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>Tat is dumb. Material is able to hold both properties at the same time. U might as well say a your bag is red and white at the same time, not completely red or white which is possible. For father and son, it is a property which is mutually exclusive. U can not hold both properties at the same time.
Before i procede...what is ur highest level of education....by ur knowledge ...i dun believe u r a postgraduate. Becoz if u can call me dumb...u shd have a solid foundation of knowledge. And i also don't believe that u r majoring in material or engineering course. What the HECK??? Since when i mention about properties???? Properties is a macroscopic term. I just..JUST mention 3 phases co-existing. Dun misinterpete with properties. From my arguement...i view that water is like god. If he wans to be presence as father, son or holy spirit...is like water present itself in different phases. And if father and son and holy spirit exist at the same time...i try to tell u that solid , liquid and gas of H20 can also exist at the same time given the exact temperature and pressure. do u know that??
>It is mutually exclusive. It is like u only have a hand. It can either be a left hand or right hand, and not a left AND right hand. If there is a left AND right hand it just meant u have 2 hands isn't it ? How can it become 1 hand ? Doesn't tat sounds like a contradiction or a lie ? Either your waistline is fatter than 30 cm or thinner than 30 cm. It cannot be fatter and thinner than 30 cm at the same time. If u say it is fatter and thinner than 30 cm at the same time
for this...i can tell u..YES it happen. In science?? Yes since u like science so much. I will answer u jusy by 6 words. Have u heard of Schrodinger's Cat?
By ur question...i know that ur science knowledge is not that deep. Becoz..any material science student shd at least heard of what Schrodinger's Cat is. And de Broglie concept of momentum and position too...
The last time i argued wif u about the creation of universe....i also told u that forces ( eg electrostatic force, magnetic force ) do not exist at the same time.
I think u need to brush up ur science b4 u could argue. Checking in the internet and trying to understand such terms in a short time wouldnt help.