Jesus was a Hindu Monk and Survived the Cross
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Yes, it is a fallacy, but the question is, are Christians guilty of it? The answer is, it depends on how one answers it! In other words, some Christians do argue the God of the gaps, and some do not. But more often the case it is the atheist who CARICATURES the answer in an attempt to poison the well, in saying that ALL Christians commit this fallacy. As the following article well demonstrates, the god-of-the-gaps argument is only good against a particular deistic approach to God and nature, and loses its potency when Scripture and science are pursued together.
See http://creation.com/whose-god-the-theological-response-to-the-god-of-the-gaps
But what the atheist conveniently forgets, and is obviously blinded to, is his very own fallacious naturalism of the gaps argument which ALL atheists ALWAYS commit, which is that what we do not know now from science, given time we will know and it will have absolutely nothing to do with God.
Sorry about this paragraph you wrote - "But what the atheist conveniently forgets, and is obviously blinded to, is his very own fallacious naturalism of the gaps argument which ALL atheists ALWAYS commit, which is that what we do not know now from science, given time we will know and it will have absolutely nothing to do with God."
What fallacy are we committing? Any reference?
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
Sorry about this paragraph you wrote - "But what the atheist conveniently forgets, and is obviously blinded to, is his very own fallacious naturalism of the gaps argument which ALL atheists ALWAYS commit, which is that what we do not know now from science, given time we will know and it will have absolutely nothing to do with God."
What fallacy are we committing? Any reference?
You commit two errors: Never read what I read and never read the article I posted.
The fallacy you committed is, here we go again, the FALLACY of the Naturalism of the Gaps argument. As for references, just look at the kind of arguments you made lor!
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
Is it fair to judge and condemn us for the sin of Adam and Eve ? Its like your ancestors did something wrong and you are being punished for it....Hmmmm....
Anybody wanna answer that ?
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
You commit two errors: Never read what I read and never read the article I posted.
The fallacy you committed is, here we go again, the FALLACY of the Naturalism of the Gaps argument. As for references, just look at the kind of arguments you made lor!
LOL "he FALLACY of the Naturalism of the Gaps argument"
New invention eh? or trying to keep up?
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
Anybody wanna answer that ?
Of course not fair.
In Islam, there is no Original Sin doctrine.
Muslims believe adam and eve paid for their own sins and that WE ourselves must bear responsibility for our own wrongdoings.
Similarly buddhists also believe that we take responsibility for our own sins and not make another person become our scapegoat.
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
Anybody wanna answer that ?
:)
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
Is it fair to judge and condemn us for the sin of Adam and Eve ? Its like your ancestors did something wrong and you are being punished for it....Hmmmm....
Demon Bane,
Note that I never said that we are condemned for the sins of Adam and Eve. Neither does the Bible teach it. I am simply explaining to you the ORIGINS of death and bad things and why it happens. We have all experienced instances whereby we were caught in the consequences of someone's blunder or moral sins. No, we were not directly punished for what that person did, but nevertheless we were not entirely free from the consequences of what he did. That's reality. Note that we do not complain when we happen to gain some benefit from one person's good act but we complain sky high and blame God when we sway sway absorb some of the negative consequences of one person's failure. That's our fallen "chow kuan" human nature at work!
You are condemned to hell for your own sins. It is only unfair if you can tell me that you are morally sinless. Of course you might then bring up the issue of babies born deformed and dead and say that they did nothing wrong to deserve it, though I would hasten to add that this question is usually invoke to deflect the spotlight away from the asker. But the Bible does not teach that stillborn babies are condemned to hell. Painful as these experiences are, such things happen because we live in a sin-cursed world, a fallen world. The Bible provides an explanation as to why such things happen. But the Bible also provides that there will come a day when the curse will be lifted and no more.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Demon Bane,
Note that I never said that we are condemned for the sins of Adam and Eve. Neither does the Bible teach it. I am simply explaining to you the ORIGINS of death and bad things and why it happens. We have all experienced instances whereby we were caught in the consequences of someone's blunder or moral sins. No, we were not directly punished for what that person did, but nevertheless we were not entirely free from the consequences of what he did. That's reality. Note that we do not complain when we happen to gain some benefit from one person's good act but we complain sky high and blame God when we sway sway absorb some of the negative consequences of one person's failure. That's our fallen "chow kuan" human nature at work!
You are condemned to hell for your own sins. It is only unfair if you can tell me that you are morally sinless. Of course you might then bring up the issue of babies born deformed and dead and say that they did nothing wrong to deserve it, though I would hasten to add that this question is usually invoke to deflect the spotlight away from the asker. But the Bible does not teach that stillborn babies are condemned to hell. Painful as these experiences are, such things happen because we live in a sin-cursed world, a fallen world. The Bible provides an explanation as to why such things happen. But the Bible also provides that there will come a day when the curse will be lifted and no more.
I still think its not fair...but u have a point there....
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
LOL "he FALLACY of the Naturalism of the Gaps argument"
New invention eh? or trying to keep up?
Like the way you are trying to keep up with me by invoking ad hoc objections while I systematically demolish your arguments? No, it's not me playing catching up with you, but me exposing you for the very same thing you accused me of but yet cannot substantiate! If atheists can invent God of the gaps fallacy why are you taking issue with me exposing you for your naturalism of the gaps fallacy? Or did I touch a nerve somewhere? Ouch. Not only that, it also shows that you are not widely read and conversant with apologetics to know of such terms that are widely used. Looks like you are only aware of your own atheist arguments ya? Confirmation bias at work?
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
I still think its not fair...but u have a point there....
Demon Bane,
Glad you can appreciate a little bit of what I was trying to explain. In addition, when we use words like fair or unfair, we need a moral yardstick by which to make such judgements. It begs the question to shout "unfair!" when one does not justify the moral stance by which he made the complaint.
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
Of course not fair.
In Islam, there is no Original Sin doctrine.
Muslims believe adam and eve paid for their own sins and that WE ourselves must bear responsibility for our own wrongdoings.
Similarly buddhists also believe that we take responsibility for our own sins and not make another person become our scapegoat.
Tsk tsk Tcmc, self-pwned again. I thought you were some Bible study expert? Didn't you know that the Bible does NOT teach that we are paying for Adam's sin? The Bible says that the soul that sins shall die. You do not pay for your father's sin, or your grandfather's sin, or your ancestor Adam's sin. Please get to know the Bible first before you bash it.
Oh BTW, Christians did not make Jesus to be our scapegoat as though He was some unwilling victim. No, Jesus is God in the flesh who willingly emptied Himself of His divine majesty and glory to take on frail human flesh to die for us to make atonement for our sins. He laid down His life for us so that we may live in Him.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Demon Bane,
Glad you can appreciate a little bit of what I was trying to explain. In addition, when we use words like fair or unfair, we need a moral yardstick by which to make such judgements. It begs the question to shout "unfair!" when one does not justify the moral stance by which he made the complaint.
Moral yardstick? Like the Laws in all civilized countries?....We are only answerable to our own misdeeds...not others...
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
Moral yardstick? Like the Laws in all civilized countries?....We are only answerable to our own misdeeds...not others...
But this still begs the question, answerable to whom? Based on what yardstick do you determine whether something is a misdeed or not?
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Tsk tsk Tcmc, self-pwned again. I thought you were some Bible study expert? Didn't you know that the Bible does NOT teach that we are paying for Adam's sin? The Bible says that the soul that sins shall die. You do not pay for your father's sin, or your grandfather's sin, or your ancestor Adam's sin. Please get to know the Bible first before you bash it.
Oh BTW, Christians did not make Jesus to be our scapegoat as though He was some unwilling victim. No, Jesus is God in the flesh who willingly emptied Himself of His divine majesty and glory to take on frail human flesh to die for us to make atonement for our sins. He laid down His life for us so that we may live in Him.
1. Oh so who caused us to be sinful? WHy must we continue to be imperfect? What was the reason? You like to change your words , but the meaning is still the same. According to christianity, it was because of adam that we are in sin. If according to christianity adam hadnt taken the fruit, will we be in sin? Therefore chrsitianity essentially teaches that we are in a way paying for adam's mistake. You like to change the words huh?
2. Well, in the Quran, it says that christians are merely making jesus the scapegoat, but Allah quickly rescued jesus and jesus didnt die. I didnt say this. The Quran did.
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
1. Oh so who caused us to be sinful? WHy must we continue to be imperfect? What was the reason? You like to change your words , but the meaning is still the same. According to christianity, it was because of adam that we are in sin. If according to christianity adam hadnt taken the fruit, will we be in sin? Therefore chrsitianity essentially teaches that we are in a way paying for adam's mistake. You like to change the words huh?
2. Well, in the Quran, it says that christians are merely making jesus the scapegoat, but Allah quickly rescued jesus and jesus didnt die. I didnt say this. The Quran did.
Tcmc,
1. I did not change words. What I said is what the Bible teaches. Your ignorance is not my problem. Unless you claim to be morally sinless, your complaint is without merit or substance.
2. Again trying to hide behind another religion and hope to see sparks eh? You defend the Koran if you like, I shall not fall for your ruse of being dragged into this debate between Islam and Christianity. I would discuss this with a Muslim if he is interested to hear me. But you? You are just patronising here and trying to stir things up.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
But this still begs the question, answerable to whom? Based on what yardstick do you determine whether something is a misdeed or not?
I dunno leh....maybe answerable to the established laws? Based upon the truth with no prejudice or emotion ?
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Tcmc,
1. I did not change words. What I said is what the Bible teaches. Your ignorance is not my problem. Unless you claim to be morally sinless, your complaint is without merit or substance.
2. Again trying to hide behind another religion and hope to see sparks eh? You defend the Koran if you like, I shall not fall for your ruse of being dragged into this debate between Islam and Christianity. I would discuss this with a Muslim if he is interested to hear me. But you? You are just patronising here and trying to stir things up.
1. Tell me simply, what caused us to be in sin and be in an imperfect world? Was it the act of adam's disobedience? Well I know you wont want to answer me because of your pride. But well, your answer is a simple yes. You jsut want to shift goalposts and change words to divert attention. Christianity teaches that we are paying for adam's original sin. And that in the ten commandments, it says that we pay for the sins of our forefathers. Again another contradiction with verses that say we dont pay for our forefathers' sin?
2. Nah, just telling you the Islamic perspective about jesus. It is widely known everywhere how Muslims view jesus. Muslims love jesus as a good human prophet.
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
I dunno leh....maybe answerable to the established laws? Based upon the truth with no prejudice or emotion ?
Demon Bane,
The point I was trying to bring across, and I think you do see the point, is the need for an absolute moral standard, an objective moral standard, one that is the ultimate and supreme standard that is the judge of all but is not subject to being judged by another, for then it would not be supreme or ultimate. Laws are not brute facts that just exist fr no reason. They are established by a moral lawgiver who is NOT a force or a thing, but really a Mind. The idea of truth resides in a Person who is the Truth. Jesus said, "I am the Truth...."
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Demon Bane,
The point I was trying to bring across, and I think you do see the point, is the need for an absolute moral standard, an objective moral standard, one that is the ultimate and supreme standard that is the judge of all but is not subject to being judged by another, for then it would not be supreme or ultimate. Laws are not brute facts that just exist fr no reason. They are established by a moral lawgiver who is NOT a force or a thing, but really a Mind. The idea of truth resides in a Person who is the Truth. Jesus said, "I am the Truth...."
Absolute moral standard?
But even among christians, morals are not standard and are subjective rght? So why do you expect nonchristians to have absolute standards for morals?
SOme christians think christian rock music is moral, some think otherwise.
Some christians think short skirts are ok for christian women, some think otherwise.
Some christians think drinking is ok, some think otherwise.
Morals are never standard! Dont live in a simple world!
THERE'S BEAUTY IN DIVERSITY!
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Demon Bane,
The point I was trying to bring across, and I think you do see the point, is the need for an absolute moral standard, an objective moral standard, one that is the ultimate and supreme standard that is the judge of all but is not subject to being judged by another, for then it would not be supreme or ultimate. Laws are not brute facts that just exist fr no reason. They are established by a moral lawgiver who is NOT a force or a thing, but really a Mind. The idea of truth resides in a Person who is the Truth. Jesus said, "I am the Truth...."
So you are saying that the christian moral yardstick is God himself ? That's an interesting point of view...
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
1. Tell me simply, what caused us to be in sin and be in an imperfect world? Was it the act of adam's disobedience? Well I know you wont want to answer me because of your pride. But well, your answer is a simple yes. You jsut want to shift goalposts and change words to divert attention. Christianity teaches that we are paying for adam's original sin. And that in the ten commandments, it says that we pay for the sins of our forefathers. Again another contradiction with verses that say we dont pay for our forefathers' sin?
2. Nah, just telling you the Islamic perspective about jesus. It is widely known everywhere how Muslims view jesus. Muslims love jesus as a good human prophet.
Tcmc,
1. I already answered you, but it is your pride that insist on banking on your own ignorance. The Bible does not teach that we are paying for Adam's sin. You pay for your own sins. Oh so you wanna talk about the 10 commandments is it? Still wanna be embarrassed some more? I shall oblige then.
Exodus 20:5 reads, "You must not bow down to them or worship them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God who will not tolerate your affection for any other gods. I lay the sins of the parents upon their children; the entire family is affected—even children in the third and fourth generations of those who reject me. But I lavish unfailing love for a thousand generations on those[b] who love me and obey my commands."
But of course, Bible bashers like you only cherry pick one part of the verse and ignore the rest. In this verse God explains that the sins of those who hate Him affects the family to the third and fourth generations, but that His love extends to a thousand generations on those who love Him. Is God being calculative here? No, He is telling us the extent of His love for us, that He is more than willing to lavish His blessings on us than His judgement.
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
So you are saying that the christian moral yardstick is God himself ? That's an interesting point of view...
Yes, you are correct. An impersonal force or thing or non-person cannot be moral at all, much less to dispense justice.
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
Absolute moral standard?
But even among christians, morals are not standard and are subjective rght? So why do you expect nonchristians to have absolute standards for morals?
SOme christians think christian rock music is moral, some think otherwise.
Some christians think short skirts are ok for christian women, some think otherwise.
Some christians think drinking is ok, some think otherwise.
Morals are never standard! Dont live in a simple world!
THERE'S BEAUTY IN DIVERSITY!
More patronising words from Tcmc again?
You said morals are NEVER standard. By what absolute standard do you justify your use of "never"? Self-pwned liao boh?
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
1. Oh so who caused us to be sinful? WHy must we continue to be imperfect? What was the reason? You like to change your words , but the meaning is still the same. According to christianity, it was because of adam that we are in sin. If according to christianity adam hadnt taken the fruit, will we be in sin? Therefore chrsitianity essentially teaches that we are in a way paying for adam's mistake. You like to change the words huh?
2. Well, in the Quran, it says that christians are merely making jesus the scapegoat, but Allah quickly rescued jesus and jesus didnt die. I didnt say this. The Quran did.
the god is already sinful and imperfect. with such an imperfect god, with a imperfect creations lol. if there is such a thing as god.
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
Science cannot prove everything and is limited.
But that does not mean you have to fill up the gaps conveniently with "god".
That is why some writers/authors refer this syndrome to as "god of the gaps".
You dont have to fill up anything you dont know with a god.
It's a fallacy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps
God exists way before man knows how to write, and man believe in God way before there was any science. at least you come to your senses that science cannot prove everything. Now get your timing and logic right, that is scientific.