Jesus was a Hindu Monk and Survived the Cross
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
From my christian frens' point of view, they think that baptism is definitely necessary...a simple process based upon faith...going to heaven or not, they said that's God's decision, not us...
But then my christian friends also tell me baptism IS necessary for baptism.
If never get baptised, the christian will not ge tsaved.
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
But then my christian friends also tell me baptism IS necessary for baptism.
If never get baptised, the christian will not ge tsaved.
So what will happen to those christians that were baptized but left their faith and join other religions? Will they still go to heaven ?
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
So what will happen to those christians that were baptized but left their faith and join other religions? Will they still go to heaven ?
Again there are many christian perspectives when it comes to christian issues. Regarding baptism these are the few -
1. Baptism is required to go heaven
2. Baptism isnt required at all. Believing in jesus is most important
3. Baptism must be followed by believing in jesus, although not necessary for salvation
4. Method of baptism must be total immersion in water to ensure ssalvation
5. Method of baptism does not need to be total immersion. Sprinking of water is also ok (modern context)
These are the few perspectives my christian friends told me :)
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
Again there are many christian perspectives when it comes to christian issues. Regarding baptism these are the few -
1. Baptism is required to go heaven
2. Baptism isnt required at all. Believing in jesus is most important
3. Baptism must be followed by believing in jesus, although not necessary for salvation
4. Method of baptism must be total immersion in water to ensure ssalvation
5. Method of baptism does not need to be total immersion. Sprinking of water is also ok (modern context)
These are the few perspectives my christian friends told me :)
So that means some non-christians will also be saved becos they were baptized before they change faith? That's weird isn't it ?
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
BIC
No, the bible verses doesnt say all that you have mentioned!
They are very clear cut that baptism is needed for salvation! Why do you say "Mind you, I am not saying that if you are not baptised then you are not saved. "
Why are you trying to change the verse or explain away the verse?
Yes synonymous i agree, but still the verse clearly says that baptism IS NEEDED for salvation! Read the verses clearly!
How can you use your "baptism not needed" verses to explain the "baptism needed" verses? Why dont you use the "baptism needed" verses to explain the "baptism not needed" verses?
Mark 16:15-16 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Acts 2:37-8 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Tcmc,
1. Oh so the verses does not say what I have mentiond, but it says what you have mentioned, that it teaches that baptism is required for salvation? So the same question is thrown back at you also, why should your interpretation be more correct than mine? See, it is not just an issue for Christians only, even atheists like you also part of the interpretive problem!
2. Why are you so dead sure that baptism is required for salvation and charge me with changing the verse? I did not change the verse or explained it away, I INTERPRETED the verse and explained it. And the thing is, you actually agreed with me that baptism is synonymous with salvation! So why are you still harping on the idea that baptism must precede salvation? You are really one confused bloke or else just playing the troll! BTW, do you baptise believers or do you baptised unbelievers? Answering this question will give you an answer. I also told you that one exception is enough to disprove the notion that baptism is required for salvation. The thief on the cross was not baptised but still he went to Paradise. Please explain this instead of explaining it away. Until now you have not even given a response to this.
3. And your throwing verses at me proves nothing, since I can easily explained them and I have done so. In the early church, all believers are baptised (with some rare exceptions as mentioned), and belief is expressed by and through baptism. So this explains Mark 16 and Acts 2. As for John 3, nothing in the context hints at Jesus teaching about baptism. It is absurd of you to see water and automatically think it means water baptism. Had Jesus meant water baptism He would have told Nicodemus something like, "Yo Nick, why you so daft? Why you think it means going back to the mother's womb? It just mean I dunk you in water mah! Haiz...." So what if other Christians tell you it means water baptism? They can't be wrong? And if you say I am wrong, then you had better give me a better exegesis, something you failed to do on many occasions. BTW, one website I particularly like (doesn't mean I agree with everything it says though) has this to say so please read http://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-John-3-5.html
4. But here's the clincher to sum all this up. Whether you believe baptism saves you or not is totally IRRELEVANT to the command to be baptised. It's like debating whether you should stop your car 10cm before the stop line or that your car overshot by 1cm, just stop lah, talk so much for what? Just obey and be baptised, and this issue will never bother you. It only bothers you if you disregard the command to obey for no good justification and you are worried. But then again, as an atheist I don't think you give two hoots about it. You are making this issue and hyping it up just to put Christians in a bad light, tio boh?
And here's one scholarly article http://www.dbts.edu/journals/1999/McCabe.pdf that suggests it has probably nothing to do with baptism or physical birth at all. Interesting read.
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
So that means some non-christians will also be saved becos they were baptized before they change faith? That's weird isn't it ?
Ask the christians about their different perspectives..
Not me. I am just telling you what my christian friends tell me :)))
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
So that means some non-christians will also be saved becos they were baptized before they change faith? That's weird isn't it ?
Good point Demon Bane!
Tcmc, were you baptised before? Do you believe that even though now you have completed slammed the door in the face of God, that you are still saved and bound for heaven?
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Tcmc,
1. Exactly my point! No one is 100% sure! Not me, not you!
2. Why i am dead sure that baptism is needed for salvtion? The same reason why you are "dead sure" baptism isnt needed for salvation. Same method.
3. You think its absurd, but apparently other christians from other denominations dont think so. They firmly believe that born of water IS water baptism. Still there are other verses that I have shown you. LIke i said, there are different perspectives but we can never be 100% sure if we are correct? Can you at least agree on this?
4. Article by Pro-"baptism isnt needed for salvation" christian?
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BIC
1. Exactly my point! No one is 100% sure! Not me, not you!
2. Why i am dead sure that baptism is needed for salvtion? The same reason why you are "dead sure" baptism isnt needed for salvation. Same method.
3. You think its absurd, but apparently other christians from other denominations dont think so. They firmly believe that born of water IS water baptism. Still there are other verses that I have shown you. LIke i said, there are different perspectives but we can never be 100% sure if we are correct? Can you at least agree on this?
4. Article by Pro-"baptism isnt needed for salvation" christian?
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Good point Demon Bane!
Tcmc, were you baptised before? Do you believe that even though now you have completed slammed the door in the face of God, that you are still saved and bound for heaven?
Ask the christians about their different perspectives..
Not me. I am just telling you what my christian friends tell me :)))
I am just stating the different christian perspectives. I myself dont believe in god. So why you ask me if i am gonna be saved?
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Good point Demon Bane!
Tcmc, were you baptised before? Do you believe that even though now you have completed slammed the door in the face of God, that you are still saved and bound for heaven?
So BIC what do u think ? Is that really true ? Non-christians can still go to heaven becos they've been baptized before?
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
despondent
You didnt answer me?
Who to believe?
I am not talking about OSAS. I am talking about BAPTISM specifically. Can you answer? So baptism for salvation or not?
1. No I am not a christian. BUT IF i need to CHOOSE who to believe because it will affect my salvation?
If I believe you and i dont get baptised before I die, i will still go heaven.
BUT if the other christians are right about baptism needed for salvation, i will end up in eternal damnation.
I am jus concerned to make a right decision.
Tcmc,
Do you think salvation is an event? Or is it a decision made in the past that one is being committed to? Wedding is an event, but marriage is a committment. In the same way, Jesus says we must abide in Him, it is a present continuous tense. If you do not abide in Him but have abandoned Him and have gone apostate, why should you believe that you are still saved and bound for heaven just because you got baptised before? You think it's fair to compel you into heaven because of baptism (a historical event that you cannot go back to change) when you have already presently decided to turn away?
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
So BIC what do u think ? Is that really true ? Non-christians can still go to heaven becos they've been baptized before?
I thought my postings were clear enough? Anyway, I don't believe non-Christians go to heaven. Like I said, baptism is an initiation rite. There is no unbaptism rite to undo the baptism. So long as you believe, you should be baptised. But if you don't believe, there is no requirement to be unbaptised, whatever that means!
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Tcmc,
Do you think salvation is an event? Or is it a decision made in the past that one is being committed to? Wedding is an event, but marriage is a committment. In the same way, Jesus says we must abide in Him, it is a present continuous tense. If you do not abide in Him but have abandoned Him and have gone apostate, why should you believe that you are still saved and bound for heaven just because you got baptised before? You think it's fair to compel you into heaven because of baptism (a historical event that you cannot go back to change) when you have already presently decided to turn away?
BIC
Take for example a desperate situation.
Old Ah Ma is dying in a few hours time and has not been baptised because of family objection.
a) If her church doesnt believe baptism is not necessary for salvation, then theres no need to be baptised. But if it turns out that baptism IS needed, she will be in eternal damnation.
b) If her church believes baptism is NECESSARY for salvation, then they must quickly do it, no matter what. But if it turns out that baptism isnt needed, she will still be heaven.
So isnt it better for YOU to believe that baptism IS needed for salvation?
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
I thought my postings were clear enough? Anyway, I don't believe non-Christians go to heaven. Like I said, baptism is an initiation rite. There is no unbaptism rite to undo the baptism. So long as you believe, you should be baptised. But if you don't believe, there is no requirement to be unbaptised, whatever that means!
Lol...
Some christians will disagree with you as well!
Some christians believe non-christians can go to heaven! And yes they quote bible verses and articles too!
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
I thought my postings were clear enough? Anyway, I don't believe non-Christians go to heaven. Like I said, baptism is an initiation rite. There is no unbaptism rite to undo the baptism. So long as you believe, you should be baptised. But if you don't believe, there is no requirement to be unbaptised, whatever that means!
My christian frens said differently leh....nevermind...thanks!
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well, the safest approach would then be to receive christ then get baptised after tat...tat would fulfill either set of doctrines...:)
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those from baptist origin may preach tat baptism is needed for salvation...tats how they got their name anyway...
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Originally posted by despondent:
well, the safest approach would then be to receive christ then get baptised after tat...tat would fulfill either set of doctrines...:)
but what if there was not enough time to baptise old ah ma, and baptism is required for salvation?
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diff ppl have diff sets of believe larh... the key is to understand while not forcing unto other his own believe larh.
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Originally posted by despondent:
well, the safest approach would then be to receive christ then get baptised after tat...tat would fulfill either set of doctrines...:)
Hahaha! That's definitely one way to go....
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God is understanding enuff and honestly if baptism is indeed necessary for salvation, he will give grace to such cases...actually it does matter whether u believe in OSAS or not...cos its related to salvation...
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Originally posted by [imdestinyz]:
diff ppl have diff sets of believe larh... the key is to understand while not forcing unto other his own believe larh.
I also read something about the "power of belief"....I think it has something to do with the subconscious mind....maybe that's why all major religions have miracles....Hahaha!
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
BIC
1. Exactly my point! No one is 100% sure! Not me, not you!
2. Why i am dead sure that baptism is needed for salvtion? The same reason why you are "dead sure" baptism isnt needed for salvation. Same method.
3. You think its absurd, but apparently other christians from other denominations dont think so. They firmly believe that born of water IS water baptism. Still there are other verses that I have shown you. LIke i said, there are different perspectives but we can never be 100% sure if we are correct? Can you at least agree on this?
4. Article by Pro-"baptism isnt needed for salvation" christian?
Tcmc,
You are still confused as ever. You said no one can be sure, but in the next paragraph you so dead sure. And then you try to include me in your problem. Sorry man, I no agree. There are things I am dead sure of, and there are things I am more tentative about but still confident to state. I don't think we need to insist on 100% certainty on every piece of doctrine. I accept the existence of differing interpretations, but I do not accept the absurd idea that there is no correct interpretation and that no one can know the correct interpretation.
And I don't quite get your question #4 above? What dod you mean Christian? Are you squabbling again on Christian sources aka genetic fallacy?
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Originally posted by despondent:
God is understanding enuff and honestly if baptism is indeed necessary for salvation, he will give grace to such cases...actually it does matter whether u believe in OSAS or not...cos its related to salvation...
Now then you "make" God's character to suit your own beliefs.
I thought God doesnt change his righteousness. he is righteous right? and if he indeed say baptism is needed for salvation and ah ma didnt baptise in time, she will still go to eternal fire.
Its like if an atheist did not repent in time, no matter how good he is, he will still end up in eternal fire, according to christianity.
So if baptism really needed for salvation, ji bai si liao. Really die this time. All the ah mas and ah gongs cannot baptise.