1+1+1 = 1 ?
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i tink he is offline...
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i tink he is offline...
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
BroInChrist
1. (quote:Already the very fact that God took on human form) = Assumption. Nowehere in the bible does it say that jesus became god. Your verses are not clear that’s why Christians disagree about trinity, I repeat for the tenth time. (quote:I showed you one verse that clearly showed that the Jews understood Jesus to be claiming to be God) = No people got stoned for blasphemy, and that does not mean he/she is god. Today people still get stoned in middle east for blasphemy but that doesn’t mean he/she is a god.
2. We can end this creationism-in-school topic. You know very well why hindu creationism or Taoist creationism isn’t taught in school. Same reason why Christian creationism isn’t taught in school.
3. Your proof that bible is “divinely inspired” are –
a) miracles (which you have not substantiated) b) prophecies (which you have not told me how your book prophecies are more true than other religious books prophecies) …….You haven’t proven anything and now you claim your bible is “divinely inspired” Great.
4. (quote:Please remember your absurd demand that Christians REPRODUCE the miracles in the Bible for you.) = Yes it is reasonable to demand for proof if you make a claim. And so far, you have failed to provide proof for miracles.
5. Again skirting the question. You haven’t proved to me what makes your holy book more true than the other holy books.
6. No majority isn't always right but majority with evidence can be taken as correct. YEC = zero evidence = wrong.
7. (quote:Yet you think you are open minded when you say all religions are false?) = I think its either you are on a monologue or you are lazy to read my posts. For the thousandth time, I never did say all religions are false J.
(quote:sheer patronising and not speaking honestly) = baseless accusations. I admire religions and im not patronizing!
(quote:BTW, do you see the beauty in Christianity?) = yes you did not read again. Lazy!
(quote:Whether I step into a mosque or a temple is totally IRRELEVANT.) = its relevant because it shows how openmidned you are to discussion of other religious books!!! FAIL…..
Tcmc,
1. Again this shows how ignorant you are of the Bible, and failed to read properly what I wrote. Which part of my post said Jesus became God? I said that God took on human form. It is not man deified, but God emptying Himself to take on human flesh. And it is false to say that the Bible is not clear on the deity of Christ. I have proven you wrong on that. And you are playing daft here, I said that Jesus was stoned for claiming to be God. You may not believe that Jesus is God, that's besides the point. The point I am making is that Jesus was being accused of claiming to be a God. You have provided no rebuttal to this.
2. Again the reason why creationism is not taught in school is because it has been defined as religion. But that does not mean that creationism is therefore false. Please know the proper distinctions.
3. To a person who holds to naturalism as a worldview, nothing would convince him of the divine inspiration of the Scriptures. So why pretend to be open-minded when you are not? Patronising again?
4. You said that YEC have zero evidence. This shows that you have no clue what the origins debate is all about. It is not for lack of evidence, it has got to do with the INTERPRETATION of the evidence that all sides possess. We have the same rocks and fossils, it is how we interpret them that differs.
5. You never said all religions are false? You really must be one hell of a confused atheist! So which religion is true? Be honest. Or should we expect a shifty patronising reply from you again? And since when is stepping into a temple or mosque proof that one is open-minded? Can you read minds? You can be stepping into a church every week and still be happily bashing it in this forum everyday! This is your idea of being open-minded? Duh...
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Hope that everybody here are happy with their own beliefs....
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Tcmc,
1. Again this shows how ignorant you are of the Bible, and failed to read properly what I wrote. Which part of my post said Jesus became God? I said that God took on human form. It is not man deified, but God emptying Himself to take on human flesh. And it is false to say that the Bible is not clear on the deity of Christ. I have proven you wrong on that. And you are playing daft here, I said that Jesus was stoned for claiming to be God. You may not believe that Jesus is God, that's besides the point. The point I am making is that Jesus was being accused of claiming to be a God. You have provided no rebuttal to this.
2. Again the reason why creationism is not taught in school is because it has been defined as religion. But that does not mean that creationism is therefore false. Please know the proper distinctions.
3. To a person who holds to naturalism as a worldview, nothing would convince him of the divine inspiration of the Scriptures. So why pretend to be open-minded when you are not? Patronising again?
4. You said that YEC have zero evidence. This shows that you have no clue what the origins debate is all about. It is not for lack of evidence, it has got to do with the INTERPRETATION of the evidence that all sides possess. We have the same rocks and fossils, it is how we interpret them that differs.
5. You never said all religions are false? You really must be one hell of a confused atheist! So which religion is true? Be honest. Or should we expect a shifty patronising reply from you again? And since when is stepping into a temple or mosque proof that one is open-minded? Can you read minds? You can be stepping into a church every week and still be happily bashing it in this forum everyday! This is your idea of being open-minded? Duh...
BroInChrist,
1. Sorry what I meant was God became flesh, not jesus became god. Typo. Yea I was saying how can you assume that God became flesh/jesus is god? How can say that by merely quoting one or two unclear verses? To you they are very clear, but if it's so clear then like i told you so many times, there wouldnt be people who disagree with the trinity. I am not acting daft, seriously. If everyone ASSUMES like YOU do that when someone gets stoned, he/she is automatically a god, then there are hundreds of gods around because almost every other day, people are stoned for blasphemy. Even in jesus' time, people were stoned for claiming to be gods or for being blasphemous, but that does not automatically make them gods. Seriously, get a reality check and stop trying to twist things to suit your beliefs.
2. Oh I never did say anything. I am only asking you to think about why hindusim creationism and taoist creationism are not taught in schools. :) You should know clearly why! End of discussion for this because you would know why. THeres no need to lie to yourself.
3. Up to now, still have not answered my questions. I have answered all your questions but all you can do is to hurl insults and skirt my questions. Please provide evidence for the miracles and prove that your prophecies are "more true" than those in other religious books. If you are able to do so, then that means your bible is more true. Then I will believe you. But if you cant, stop parading around with baseless statements and "faith statements" that your religion is the most true, when you have not proved anything.
4. HAHAHAHAHHA. YEC is only recognised by 1) churches 2) bible colleges. Very clear.
5. (quote:You never said all religions are false?) = Yes I never did! You got it right this time round, finally.
I am not extreme like you. For you you go for the extremes like If A must be wrong then B must be right. You're too simple-minded and extreme. I dont have to explicitly say which is right and which iswrong , because there are rights and wrongs in all religions and thats the beauty! Life is nt always black and white, right and wrong.
MOST IMPORTANTLY,
Please provide evidence for the miracles and prove that your prophecies are "more true" than those in other religious books.
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Originally posted by despondent:
i tink he is offline...
despondent
I'm here actually, I just choose not to reply to those who are not interested in a meaningful discussion, close their eyes and ears (and brains) and go, "la la la la la!".
Thank God for people like Reasonable Atheist, whom I thought brought out some great points. Some of the others are sadly an embarrassment to themselves and Atheism.
I really admire the patience that you and BroInChrist have, perhaps this is something that I need to learn. May our Lord grant you His wisdom and gentleness in your faith journey
11"Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you."
Matthew Chap 5
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
BroInChrist,
1. Sorry what I meant was God became flesh, not jesus became god. Typo. Yea I was saying how can you assume that God became flesh/jesus is god? How can say that by merely quoting one or two unclear verses? To you they are very clear, but if it's so clear then like i told you so many times, there wouldnt be people who disagree with the trinity. I am not acting daft, seriously. If everyone ASSUMES like YOU do that when someone gets stoned, he/she is automatically a god, then there are hundreds of gods around because almost every other day, people are stoned for blasphemy. Even in jesus' time, people were stoned for claiming to be gods or for being blasphemous, but that does not automatically make them gods. Seriously, get a reality check and stop trying to twist things to suit your beliefs.
2. Oh I never did say anything. I am only asking you to think about why hindusim creationism and taoist creationism are not taught in schools. :) You should know clearly why! End of discussion for this because you would know why. THeres no need to lie to yourself.
3. Up to now, still have not answered my questions. I have answered all your questions but all you can do is to hurl insults and skirt my questions. Please provide evidence for the miracles and prove that your prophecies are "more true" than those in other religious books. If you are able to do so, then that means your bible is more true. Then I will believe you. But if you cant, stop parading around with baseless statements and "faith statements" that your religion is the most true, when you have not proved anything.
4. HAHAHAHAHHA. YEC is only recognised by 1) churches 2) bible colleges. Very clear.
5. (quote:You never said all religions are false?) = Yes I never did! You got it right this time round, finally.
I am not extreme like you. For you you go for the extremes like If A must be wrong then B must be right. You're too simple-minded and extreme. I dont have to explicitly say which is right and which iswrong , because there are rights and wrongs in all religions and thats the beauty! Life is nt always black and white, right and wrong.
MOST IMPORTANTLY,
Please provide evidence for the miracles and prove that your prophecies are "more true" than those in other religious books.
Tcmc,
1. My basis for believing that Jesus is God in the flesh is because that's what the Bible says. I did not make it up myself. My authority is the Bible. You may not agree with my authority or like my authority, but that's not my problem. People disagree with the teaching of Trinity for a host of reasons. But those that say because the Bible is unclear have nothing to stand on. Just take a look at your objections and so-called verses proving Jesus was not God, it was a complete failure. I said the incarnation meant that God limited Himself in the exercise of His divine faculties but that apparently just flew over your head. And why are you putting words in my mouth again and again? I already said that in the case of Jesus, the charge of blasphemy was that He claimed to be God. Please stick to the subject of Jesus and not play games about what blasphemy is. I NEVER said that blasphemy only means claiming to be God.
2. Since when did I lie to myself? I was the one who told you why creationism of any form is not taught in schools. You asked for the reason and I told you so.
3. It is wrong to say that I did not answer your questions. I have. But I also exercise wisdom not to "cast pearls before swine". Until you show yourself to be humble and teachable, nothing offered by way of evidence to you will be treated with proper consideration. You have already demonstrated that.
4. Who recognise YEC is besides the point. The point is whether the Bible teaches it, and whether the evidence supports it. But since you are hardly interested I see not need to waste time dwelling on this.
5. I really wonder whether you are a true atheist. Please answer me, "Which religion do you believe is true, as an atheist?" Or are you afraid to answer for yourself? Shall I help you out then? You said life is not black and white. But for an atheist the existence of God and the supernatural is a matter of black and white, there is no God and no such thing as the supernatural. Or you telling me you are unsure and uncertain? Then you should leave the atheist club and join the agnostic club.
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
Hope that everybody here are happy with their own beliefs....
Demon Bane,
I think the issue is not whether one is happy with their own beliefs. The issue is that beliefs have consequences, and if we truly care for people we want to help them get rid of bad beliefs. Example? Think about the Applewhite tragedy. Were they happy with their beliefs? Sure they were. You think there's a need to warn them about their beliefs? I for one think so. We should not be guided by what makes us happy (drugs can make you happy, but dead too!) but by what is right, good and true. Agree?
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Originally posted by Servant:
despondent
I'm here actually, I just choose not to reply to those who are not interested in a meaningful discussion, close their eyes and ears (and brains) and go, "la la la la la!".
Thank God for people like Reasonable Atheist, whom I thought brought out some great points. Some of the others are sadly an embarrassment to themselves and Atheism.
I really admire the patience that you and BroInChrist have, perhaps this is something that I need to learn. May our Lord grant you His wisdom and gentleness in your faith journey
11"Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you."
Matthew Chap 5
Thanks. I'm glad that we have a couple of other Christians (in addition to BIC) willing to debate atheists here.
Right now I have my hands full with that discussion on evangelism, but when that's resolved, I may start a topic that is at the core of my atheism: Free will, or the lack thereof.In the mean time, if you're interested, you can check out my exchange with BIC on free will here:
http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/showthread.php?t=3176056 -
Originally posted by Servant:
despondent
I'm here actually, I just choose not to reply to those who are not interested in a meaningful discussion, close their eyes and ears (and brains) and go, "la la la la la!".
Thank God for people like Reasonable Atheist, whom I thought brought out some great points. Some of the others are sadly an embarrassment to themselves and Atheism.
I really admire the patience that you and BroInChrist have, perhaps this is something that I need to learn. May our Lord grant you His wisdom and gentleness in your faith journey
11"Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you."
Matthew Chap 5
My dear Servant
You made claims and you dont want to provide sources. And now you say I am the one shutting my ears and shouting lalalala?
You made 3 big claims -
1. Non-christian sources about jesus being god. I ask you to provide source.
2. Eyewitnesses accounts about jesus. I also ask you for accounts outside of the bible. You cant use the bible to prove itself like i cant use a history book to prove itself.
3. You said age of church proves jesus is god. I also ask you if your logic applies for other religions?
You can answer and we can have a meaningful discussion
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Demon Bane,
I think the issue is not whether one is happy with their own beliefs. The issue is that beliefs have consequences, and if we truly care for people we want to help them get rid of bad beliefs. Example? Think about the Applewhite tragedy. Were they happy with their beliefs? Sure they were. You think there's a need to warn them about their beliefs? I for one think so. We should not be guided by what makes us happy (drugs can make you happy, but dead too!) but by what is right, good and true. Agree?
And similarly,
I am telling you that your extreme beliefs might be detrimental to yourself.
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
And similarly,
I am telling you that your extreme beliefs might be detrimental to yourself.
Tcmc,
Which of my beliefs are extreme? Of course that would first means you need to define what is "extreme". Next, please show how it is detrimental to myself, and detrimental in what sense?
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Tcmc,
1. My basis for believing that Jesus is God in the flesh is because that's what the Bible says. I did not make it up myself. My authority is the Bible. You may not agree with my authority or like my authority, but that's not my problem. People disagree with the teaching of Trinity for a host of reasons. But those that say because the Bible is unclear have nothing to stand on. Just take a look at your objections and so-called verses proving Jesus was not God, it was a complete failure. I said the incarnation meant that God limited Himself in the exercise of His divine faculties but that apparently just flew over your head. And why are you putting words in my mouth again and again? I already said that in the case of Jesus, the charge of blasphemy was that He claimed to be God. Please stick to the subject of Jesus and not play games about what blasphemy is. I NEVER said that blasphemy only means claiming to be God.
2. Since when did I lie to myself? I was the one who told you why creationism of any form is not taught in schools. You asked for the reason and I told you so.
3. It is wrong to say that I did not answer your questions. I have. But I also exercise wisdom not to "cast pearls before swine". Until you show yourself to be humble and teachable, nothing offered by way of evidence to you will be treated with proper consideration. You have already demonstrated that.
4. Who recognise YEC is besides the point. The point is whether the Bible teaches it, and whether the evidence supports it. But since you are hardly interested I see not need to waste time dwelling on this.
5. I really wonder whether you are a true atheist. Please answer me, "Which religion do you believe is true, as an atheist?" Or are you afraid to answer for yourself? Shall I help you out then? You said life is not black and white. But for an atheist the existence of God and the supernatural is a matter of black and white, there is no God and no such thing as the supernatural. Or you telling me you are unsure and uncertain? Then you should leave the atheist club and join the agnostic club.
1. End of the day, yes the bible is VERY CLEAR to you abou trinity, just like the bible IS VERY CLEAR to other non-trinitarian christians about jesus not being god. This is a fact. I am not saying if you're right or they're wrong. I am saying that some christians read the bible and believe jesus is god while some christians read the bible and believe jesus isnt god .
2. OK so long as you know why taoist/hindu/christian creationism isnt taught in schools, then we can end this point.
3. Please provide evidence for the miracles and prove that your prophecies are "more true" than those in other religious books. If you are able to do so, then that means your bible is more true. Then I will believe you.
4. If you or your kids sit for science exams next time, be sure to write 6000 years old as the age of the earth and that we came from magic dust by a Deity and not evolution in the beginning, if the exam papers require you or your kids to so. I leave that to you since you believe YEC is factual. Just curious, if examinations require you to write the age of the earth and where we came from, will you write all that?
5. See again , you see things in black and white and in extremes. Life is not only black and white cos there are many grey areas and beautiful colors!
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
1. End of the day, yes the bible is VERY CLEAR to you abou trinity, just like the bible IS VERY CLEAR to other non-trinitarian christians about jesus not being god. This is a fact. I am not saying if you're right or they're wrong. I am saying that some christians read the bible and believe jesus is god while some christians read the bible and believe jesus isnt god .
2. OK so long as you know why taoist/hindu/christian creationism isnt taught in schools, then we can end this point.
3. Please provide evidence for the miracles and prove that your prophecies are "more true" than those in other religious books. If you are able to do so, then that means your bible is more true. Then I will believe you.
4. If you or your kids sit for science exams next time, be sure to write 6000 years old as the age of the earth and that we came from magic dust by a Deity and not evolution in the beginning, if the exam papers require you or your kids to so. I leave that to you since you believe YEC is factual. Just curious, if examinations require you to write the age of the earth and where we came from, will you write all that?
5. See again , you see things in black and white and in extremes. Life is not only black and white cos there are many grey areas and beautiful colors!
Tcmc,
1. The point is that I am able to REBUTT the arguments of those who think that the Bible does not teach the deity of Christ, like the way I have done so for your proof-texts. You couldn't even touch my John 10:33 that clearly showed that Jesus' enemies understood Him to have claimed to be God. You show me a Christian who claim otherwise and I will show you a Christian who does not know the Scriptures.
2. Re the miracles I have already earlier said that if you can provide the tools for proving miracles that have happened 2000 years ago, I will surely provide you the proof that they happened. Point is, you have no idea what we are dealing with here. What is even more absurd is that you demand that we reproduce the miracles before you would believe!
3. Concerning kids sitting for exams, don't be silly. Examinations are a test of one's knowledge of the subject matter, not a test of truth or whether you believe it to be true. It is designed to show whether you have studied the subject. So a Christian can always answer the exam questions according to the standard textbooks without any question of conscience. Yes, I will tell students to write, "The earth is believed to be 4.5 billion years old by many scientists" or "According to XYZ text, the age of the earth is 4.5 billion years old". You think the teacher will fail the kids? I don't think so. Christians can be smart when it comes to answering exam questions. So you don't have to worry for us, though I know you are feigning concern here.
4. In life there are black and white and also shades of gray. I am NOT saying that everything is either black or white. I am saying that in life MANY things are black or white. Even you would agree with that. So clearly you are guilty of MISREPRESENTING my worldview.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Tcmc,
1. The point is that I am able to REBUTT the arguments of those who think that the Bible does not teach the deity of Christ, like the way I have done so for your proof-texts. You couldn't even touch my John 10:33 that clearly showed that Jesus' enemies understood Him to have claimed to be God. You show me a Christian who claim otherwise and I will show you a Christian who does not know the Scriptures.
2. Re the miracles I have already earlier said that if you can provide the tools for proving miracles that have happened 2000 years ago, I will surely provide you the proof that they happened. Point is, you have no idea what we are dealing with here. What is even more absurd is that you demand that we reproduce the miracles before you would believe!
3. Concerning kids sitting for exams, don't be silly. Examinations are a test of one's knowledge of the subject matter, not a test of truth or whether you believe it to be true. It is designed to show whether you have studied the subject. So a Christian can always answer the exam questions according to the standard textbooks without any question of conscience. Yes, I will tell students to write, "The earth is believed to be 4.5 billion years old by many scientists" or "According to XYZ text, the age of the earth is 4.5 billion years old". You think the teacher will fail the kids? I don't think so. Christians can be smart when it comes to answering exam questions. So you don't have to worry for us, though I know you are feigning concern here.
4. In life there are black and white and also shades of gray. I am NOT saying that everything is either black or white. I am saying that in life MANY things are black or white. Even you would agree with that. So clearly you are guilty of MISREPRESENTING my worldview.
1. Similarly any non-trinitarian christian or me can also provide you verses (which i have done but you refuse to see them) to rebutt your trinity claims derived from the bible. So my point is not whether you are right or they are wrong, but that christians interpret the bible differently when it comes to trinity. So why are you so defensive when I am not even saying you're wrong? You assume and judge a non-trinitarian christian as "unchristian". But still thats only your judgment and your interpretation of who the christian god is. :)
2. Simply put, you cant reproduce the crossing of the red sea, lviing in a fish stomach, donkey talking, walking on water and flying into the skies. So I will just take it as your "claims".
3. So you truly believe in your heart that the earth is 6000 years old but in the exams you will write it is 4.5 billion years old. INTERESTING! Isn't that like bearing false witness to what God has intended?
4. Hopefully you do feel that there are grey areas in your religion too.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Demon Bane,
I think the issue is not whether one is happy with their own beliefs. The issue is that beliefs have consequences, and if we truly care for people we want to help them get rid of bad beliefs. Example? Think about the Applewhite tragedy. Were they happy with their beliefs? Sure they were. You think there's a need to warn them about their beliefs? I for one think so. We should not be guided by what makes us happy (drugs can make you happy, but dead too!) but by what is right, good and true. Agree?
Okay u may have a good point there...but how do you judge that others have "bad beliefs" ? I have some good christian frens and buddhist frens too....they are all happy....
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
Okay u may have a good point there...but how do you judge that others have "bad beliefs" ? I have some good christian frens and buddhist frens too....they are all happy....
Demon Bane,
At the very least you can see the effects of those beliefs. If those beliefs require you to harm yourself or commit mass suicide, I am sure you can be a good samaritan and point them out. Other beliefs may not have such drastic consequences but you can also help to point out flaws in them.
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
1. Similarly any non-trinitarian christian or me can also provide you verses (which i have done but you refuse to see them) to rebutt your trinity claims derived from the bible. So my point is not whether you are right or they are wrong, but that christians interpret the bible differently when it comes to trinity. So why are you so defensive when I am not even saying you're wrong? You assume and judge a non-trinitarian christian as "unchristian". But still thats only your judgment and your interpretation of who the christian god is. :)
2. Simply put, you cant reproduce the crossing of the red sea, lviing in a fish stomach, donkey talking, walking on water and flying into the skies. So I will just take it as your "claims".
3. So you truly believe in your heart that the earth is 6000 years old but in the exams you will write it is 4.5 billion years old. INTERESTING! Isn't that like bearing false witness to what God has intended?
4. Hopefully you do feel that there are grey areas in your religion too.
Tcmc,
1. You tried to produce a proof-text and I rebutted you on that. But you have not rebutted my John 10:33. I am hardly being defensive here. I don't think your offense was even strong to begin with! BTW, I am only saying what the Bible says, that those who deny Christ as God are not true believers.
2. Indeed I cannot reproduce the miracles to you, but I don't see how that would mean these things did not happen. Unless you hold to a naturalistic view of the world you have no basis to deny that miracles can happen.
3. You failed to understand as usual. Why would it be false witness to write the answers as the examination require? Are exams the test of one's beliefs? Do exams require you to swear on the truth of what you wrote? The answer is NO. It is the test of one's knowledge of the subject matter. Get this clear please.
4. As far as the Bible is concern, where it speaks clearly we should also speak clearly. Where it does not speak clearly Christian liberty and charity should be the guide, so long as it does not violate other parts of Scripture.
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
Hope that everybody here are happy with their own beliefs....
Thank you. I am happy with my current status now, freedom! -
Originally posted by winsomeea:
Thank you. I am happy with my current status now, freedom!but you still believe in a god dun u
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Believing does not mean acceptance.
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Originally posted by winsomeea:
Believing does not mean acceptance.
but why you want to believe in something that does not exists or rather, invention of mankind.
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I believe He exists. He exists! But does not mean I will want to accept him.
I am not interested in supernatural beings with no credibility.
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Originally posted by winsomeea:
I believe He exists. He exists! But does not mean I will want to accept him.
I am not interested in supernatural beings with no credibility.
exists in your figment of imagination ba
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Originally posted by Rooney_07:
exists in your figment of imagination ba
You are another hypocrite!
You point fingers at christians saying they don't respect others, you are just the same, hypocrite, hypocritical Rooney_07.You sound like a troublemaker! Stay out of my religious freedom to believe in whatever I want or don't want, hypocrite and spoilt brat!
I don't have the obligation to believe as what you wish so stay out of it, don't mess with me! 