1+1+1 = 1 ?
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
Ermmmm...its hard to talk or to have a meaningful discussion if one does not have an open mind....you'll be shouting at the top of your voices on what u believe, but that doesn't make it true (to all people)....maybe for you, Christianity works....congrats, but you must learn to hear other people's point of view too....
There are so many different types of food....some people like this, others like that....dun be too judgemental if they dun eat the same food as you do ?! We eat whatever that fills our belly....Hahaha!
ermmm....., Christians believe in what they believe, and you believe in what you believe.... why does it matter whether the Christians hear your point of view or you listen to their point of view.... you buy your own food and you eat to fill your belly, they buy their own food and eat for fun.....hahahaha
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Tcmc,
1. Yes, indeed the doctrine of the incarnation is clearly taught. And the verse I showed you is crystal clear. You are just playing daft here.
2. Typo error re the point about Jews rejecting the OT, I meant NT.
3. Creationism is NOT taught in secular schools at all. So what's with the irrelevant point about Hindu creationism?
4. Creationism is labeled as pseudo-science, but if that is so, then evolutonism should also be labeled pseudo-science.
5. Since when is confidence in what the Bible says about origins something to be considered wrong? It is entirely reasonable to believe that God created the universe. We have a local scientist here by the name of Dr Aw Swee Eng, in the department of nuclear medicine at SGH. Go check him out.
6. Your dismissal of the Bible rests of spurious reasons. It is silly and absurd to expect Christians to reproduce miracles for you.
7. The point about owyh is that it is a limitation of Hebrew language and a matter of translation. There is nothing wrong with calling a bat a winged animal, is there?
8. Yes, I believe the earth is about 6000 years. You can add up the chronologies in the Bible and come to this conclusion as well. Else tell me how come prior to Darwin it was universally believed that the earth was 6000 years old?
9. Pray tell what was the content of Jesus' blasphemy for which the Jews wanted to stone Him? Hint: John 10:33
10. Are you open to other religions? Then you are clearly confused. As an atheist you should be saying that all religions are simply results of evolutionary processes, invented for survival purposes.
BroInChrist,
1. Let's conclude fairly shall we? About the incarnation, the bible is pretty unclear, that is why some christians say jesus is god while some christians say jesus isn't. Both camps use verses to justify their beliefs. I am not gonna say who's right or wrong, but I'm just saying, the bible is generic and thats why the different interpretations. Moreover, you only showed me one verse that says "jesus and the father are one". When someone says he is one with the other, it can MEAN ALOT OF THINGS.
2. ok
3. Yes I know all forms of creationism isnt taught in schools. I am asking you why? Which you have still not answered me. Why are all forms of creationism not taught in most schools? Do you have a reason?
4. My friend. If you say evolution is pseudo-science, you are disagreeing with the majority of scientists. Evolution is well founded. Very well founded.
5. If you say the origins of the bible is your god, then prove it. I am ok with you saying that it's your god who did it. But please prove it. And if you use the bible to prove it, again I ask you what makes your holy book more true than the rest of the holy books. This is the 2nd question you have continuously not answered.
6. My dismissal of the bible based on the reasons given are reasonable. Many christian theologians also agree that the bible isn't perfect. Only creationist-fundamentalist christians like you will insist the bible is perfect word for word. I have met many christians who have also admitted that the bible isn't perfect and complete. But your pride has blinded you.
7. Like I said before, its funny how you need to do the explanation for all the inconsistencies and errors in the book that was "supposedly inspired" by an allknowing god. It's strange isnt it? That christians likeyou have to do so much explanation on behalf of your god. Shows that your bible isnt very clear to begin with!
8. Sadly, i know many christians who would strongly disagree with you regarding the age of the earth. They say christians like you make them look stupid.
9. 2000 years ago, when someone commits blasphemy, he/she is sentenced to death. And that doesnt mean he/she is a god just because he/she claims he/she is.
10. Dont be silly. Yes I know the purpose of religions but yet I am open to the religions. I see beauty in religions. I am not like you. I am not narrow minded. You only are open to one religion and you think the rest are trash. You have not even answered my question. Are you openminded like me? Are you able to walk into a temple or mosque to see the beauty of other religions? You cant. BECAUSE you have closed your mind.
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Originally posted by sgdiehard:
ermmm....., Christians believe in what they believe, and you believe in what you believe.... why does it matter whether the Christians hear your point of view or you listen to their point of view.... you buy your own food and you eat to fill your belly, they buy their own food and eat for fun.....hahahaha
sgdiehard,
the problem with christians is they dont just believe what they wanna believe. they tell everyone about it and try to hard sell the religion.
that is the irritating part. most buddhists/taoists/muslims/hindus keep their religions to themselves..
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
sgdiehard,
the problem with christians is they dont just believe what they wanna believe. they tell everyone about it and try to hard sell the religion.
that is the irritating part. most buddhists/taoists/muslims/hindus keep their religions to themselves..
That is the bible. The bible wants them to go forth to preach the word.I am not against they preach as long as they respect the non believers. If they are pushy and unkind, sorry lol, I no give chance.
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Originally posted by winsomeea:
That is the bible. The bible wants them to go forth to preach the word.I am not against they preach as long as they respect the non believers. If they are pushy and unkind, sorry lol, I no give chance.
Winsomeaa
Problem is they choose what they wanna do in the bible.
The bible also says women cannot preach in church, christians must sell everything to follow jesus and that christians must go to church everyday to gather. But they also dont do all this what.
So how can they just pick the "go forth and preach" instruction and say they must do it?
So many things in the bible they also never do.
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
Winsomeaa
Problem is they choose what they wanna do in the bible.
The bible also says women cannot preach in church, christians must sell everything to follow jesus and that christians must go to church everyday to gather. But they also dont do all this what.
So how can they just pick the "go forth and preach" instruction and say they must do it?
So many things in the bible they also never do.
I get what you mean. I also find some contradictions.
As for the women cannot preach in church, I was told this is modern times so they go ahead and allow women to preach.
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God almost killed Moses becoz he never circumcise..............
so you guys better potong............and live in Potong Pasir.......
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
We must be reminded that this thread is within the Christians' forum...why dun Christians come to Buddhists forum ? Just curious....
Why?
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Originally posted by Servant:
No, but I will believe a Book that originates from plenty of archived manuscripts and credible archaeological evidence, that has eyewitness accounts, references from non-Christian sources and a present-day church (with historical roots all the way back to the time of Jesus Christ) that is a visible symbol of everything that the Bible stands for.
Actually, all this is from the article that I posted which makes all this as clear as daylight. So looking at your silence on this article, logic would now suggest that you don't have an answer to all this, despite your pretence of being open and knowledgeble.
Just a friendly piece of advice: it's okay to say 'I don't know' or 'perhaps I am wrong', really. You won't lose any respect for that.
1. References from non-christian sources about what? Can you please show me the non-christian sources?
2. Eyewitnesses accounts from the bible itself? You use the bible to prove the bible? Can i use the harry potter book to prove itself?
3. Just because the church is 2000 years old, that proves jesus is God? Then the mosque is also 1400 years old and chinese religion is 5000 years old. Do they also prove their Gods?
Please explain and make sense
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Same to you too my friend -it's okay to say 'I don't know' or 'perhaps I am wrong',
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Tcmc
Just as I suspected, you haven't read the article in depth, or if at all.
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Originally posted by Servant:
Tcmc
Just as I suspected, you haven't read the article in depth, or if at all.
Dont give snide remarks just to avoid my questions. You made claims in your post. So now I am asking for your sources.
Provide them
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You claim
1. there are non-christian sources
2. eyewitnesses accounts
3. age of church proves jesus is god.
So now I am asking u to prove all these. Sources pls.
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I dont like baseless statements.
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tcmc,
i tink regarding age of church proving jesus is God, i noe roughly where servant is coming from but i will leave him to explain...however, prior to tat let me say tis tat u are very likely to say its ambiguous and unclear...cos i noe wad kind of ''evidence'' u are looking for...
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Originally posted by despondent:
tcmc,
i tink regarding age of church proving jesus is God, i noe roughly where servant is coming from but i will leave him to explain...however, prior to tat let me say tis tat u are very likely to say its ambiguous and unclear...cos i noe wad kind of ''evidence'' u are looking for...
despondent,
1. Yes I am sicnerely asking for nonchristian sources, that Servant claimed.
2. I am also asking about the eyewitneesses accounts. Did he mean the eyewitnesses accounts in the bible? Can a person use a book to prove itself?? Can I use a history book to prove itself? Can I use a story book to prove itself?
3. Age of the church proving that jesus is god? Well if that's the case, then age of the islam with all its scriptures, age of hinduism with all its scriptures, , age of sikhism with all its scriptures, and age of greek religion with all its scriptures, can all prove their gods. There is no correlation right? Please clarify.
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like i said, i leave him to clarify since he was the one who brought those up. but cos i noe ur way of arguing facts, i noe u wun find the facts he provide to be ''evidence''...u wil say they are ambiguous and unclear...
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Originally posted by despondent:
like i said, i leave him to clarify since he was the one who brought those up. but cos i noe ur way of arguing facts, i noe u wun find the facts he provide to be ''evidence''...u wil say they are ambiguous and unclear...
No.
When you tried to show me that the NT and OT has remained generally unchanged over a long period of time, i accepted it because it was clear and i did some research myself too.
So i will accept your argument if its reasonable
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servant doesnt illustrate the way i do...BIC definitely wun be able to convince u cos he is one of those christians who explain by quoting the bible...u need someone who can illustrate the fact in the bible using life egs ard us, from outside of the bible...
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Originally posted by despondent:
servant doesnt illustrate the way i do...BIC definitely wun be able to convince u cos he is one of those christians who explain by quoting the bible...u need someone who can illustrate the fact in the bible using life egs ard us, from outside of the bible...
As far as you and I are concerned, I only agreed with you about the contents remaining unchanged for 2000 years for OT and 1800 years for NT.
Your life eg about the trinity were not reasonable and i alrdy explained to u why.:)
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u need to understand tat reasonability is in the eyes of the beholder...i get the feeling tat u dun believe in tat...
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Originally posted by despondent:
u need to understand tat reasonability is in the eyes of the beholder...i get the feeling tat u dun believe in tat...
Well, if donkeys talking and a man living in a fish for 3 days is reasonable to u, then a talking unicorn is reasonable to me too
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
BroInChrist,
1. Let's conclude fairly shall we? About the incarnation, the bible is pretty unclear, that is why some christians say jesus is god while some christians say jesus isn't. Both camps use verses to justify their beliefs. I am not gonna say who's right or wrong, but I'm just saying, the bible is generic and thats why the different interpretations. Moreover, you only showed me one verse that says "jesus and the father are one". When someone says he is one with the other, it can MEAN ALOT OF THINGS.
2. ok
3. Yes I know all forms of creationism isnt taught in schools. I am asking you why? Which you have still not answered me. Why are all forms of creationism not taught in most schools? Do you have a reason?
4. My friend. If you say evolution is pseudo-science, you are disagreeing with the majority of scientists. Evolution is well founded. Very well founded.
5. If you say the origins of the bible is your god, then prove it. I am ok with you saying that it's your god who did it. But please prove it. And if you use the bible to prove it, again I ask you what makes your holy book more true than the rest of the holy books. This is the 2nd question you have continuously not answered.
6. My dismissal of the bible based on the reasons given are reasonable. Many christian theologians also agree that the bible isn't perfect. Only creationist-fundamentalist christians like you will insist the bible is perfect word for word. I have met many christians who have also admitted that the bible isn't perfect and complete. But your pride has blinded you.
7. Like I said before, its funny how you need to do the explanation for all the inconsistencies and errors in the book that was "supposedly inspired" by an allknowing god. It's strange isnt it? That christians likeyou have to do so much explanation on behalf of your god. Shows that your bible isnt very clear to begin with!
8. Sadly, i know many christians who would strongly disagree with you regarding the age of the earth. They say christians like you make them look stupid.
9. 2000 years ago, when someone commits blasphemy, he/she is sentenced to death. And that doesnt mean he/she is a god just because he/she claims he/she is.
10. Dont be silly. Yes I know the purpose of religions but yet I am open to the religions. I see beauty in religions. I am not like you. I am not narrow minded. You only are open to one religion and you think the rest are trash. You have not even answered my question. Are you openminded like me? Are you able to walk into a temple or mosque to see the beauty of other religions? You cant. BECAUSE you have closed your mind.
Tcmc,
OK, let's conclude fairly then.
1. The doctrine of the incarnation is clearly taught in Scripture. People who think the Bible have verses that support the non-deity of Christ clearly FAILED to grapple with the doctrine of the incarnation and what that means. Already the very fact that God took on human form is already a self-imposed limitation in terms of where Jesus can be at any point in time. I showed you one verse that clearly showed that the Jews understood Jesus to be claiming to be God and thus guilty of blasphemy and deserving of stoning. Yes, people can be stoned for blasphemy and blasphemy is not just restricted to claiming to be God. But in Jesus' case, the charge of blasphemy was the claim to be God. Your failure to grasp this point is evident.
2. Creationism is not taught in school because it has been defined as religion, simple as that. But I would also argue that evolutionism should not be taught in school because it is also a religion. And yes I realise that I would be disagreeing with many people on this. Many think that evolution is well-founded. I used to think the same too. But I now know better. In any case, majority does not determine truth.
3. A proof of the Bible's divine source is the fact of fulfilled prophecies. Of course the standard atheist comeback would be that these are all after-the-fact recon. But I think this line of argument is easily rebutted.
4. Please remember your absurd demand that Christians REPRODUCE the miracles in the Bible for you. Is this demand reasonable? How so?
5. You are throwing in another red herring about me having to defend the Bible from your bashing. Why? Is it because your objections have been refuted and now you are harping about why Christians have to defend the Bible? What's your point really? That God has to appear before you and validate every single passage until you are satisfied? Why should He?
6. Yes, there will be many Christians today who would disagree with me regarding the age of the earth. Just a couple of centuries ago it would have been the reverse. Again so what if majority disagree with me on this? Are you saying that majority determines the truth? There are reasons why many choose to depart from the plain teaching of the Bible. In fact, many OEC have said that when it comes to exegesis, it is the YEC who have the better argument. But the reason why OEC rejects that plain meaning is because they have chosen to defer the Bible to science.
7. You said I am narrow minded because I think only my religion is true. Yet you think you are open minded when you say all religions are false? If this is not warped thinking I don't know what is. And as far as I can tell, your bragging about seeing the beauty in other religions is sheer patronising and not speaking honestly. BTW, do you see the beauty in Christianity? I think we know the answer to that already. And please don't go on a red herring here. Whether I step into a mosque or a temple is totally IRRELEVANT.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Tcmc,
OK, let's conclude fairly then.
1. The doctrine of the incarnation is clearly taught in Scripture. People who think the Bible have verses that support the non-deity of Christ clearly FAILED to grapple with the doctrine of the incarnation and what that means. Already the very fact that God took on human form is already a self-imposed limitation in terms of where Jesus can be at any point in time. I showed you one verse that clearly showed that the Jews understood Jesus to be claiming to be God and thus guilty of blasphemy and deserving of stoning. Yes, people can be stoned for blasphemy and blasphemy is not just restricted to claiming to be God. But in Jesus' case, the charge of blasphemy was the claim to be God. Your failure to grasp this point is evident.
2. Creationism is not taught in school because it has been defined as religion, simple as that. But I would also argue that evolutionism should not be taught in school because it is also a religion. And yes I realise that I would be disagreeing with many people on this. Many think that evolution is well-founded. I used to think the same too. But I now know better. In any case, majority does not determine truth.
3. A proof of the Bible's divine source is the fact of fulfilled prophecies. Of course the standard atheist comeback would be that these are all after-the-fact recon. But I think this line of argument is easily rebutted.
4. Please remember your absurd demand that Christians REPRODUCE the miracles in the Bible for you. Is this demand reasonable? How so?
5. You are throwing in another red herring about me having to defend the Bible from your bashing. Why? Is it because your objections have been refuted and now you are harping about why Christians have to defend the Bible? What's your point really? That God has to appear before you and validate every single passage until you are satisfied? Why should He?
6. Yes, there will be many Christians today who would disagree with me regarding the age of the earth. Just a couple of centuries ago it would have been the reverse. Again so what if majority disagree with me on this? Are you saying that majority determines the truth? There are reasons why many choose to depart from the plain teaching of the Bible. In fact, many OEC have said that when it comes to exegesis, it is the YEC who have the better argument. But the reason why OEC rejects that plain meaning is because they have chosen to defer the Bible to science.
7. You said I am narrow minded because I think only my religion is true. Yet you think you are open minded when you say all religions are false? If this is not warped thinking I don't know what is. And as far as I can tell, your bragging about seeing the beauty in other religions is sheer patronising and not speaking honestly. BTW, do you see the beauty in Christianity? I think we know the answer to that already. And please don't go on a red herring here. Whether I step into a mosque or a temple is totally IRRELEVANT.
BroInChrist
1. (quote:Already the very fact that God took on human form) = Assumption. Nowehere in the bible does it say that jesus became god. Your verses are not clear that’s why Christians disagree about trinity, I repeat for the tenth time. (quote:I showed you one verse that clearly showed that the Jews understood Jesus to be claiming to be God) = No people got stoned for blasphemy, and that does not mean he/she is god. Today people still get stoned in middle east for blasphemy but that doesn’t mean he/she is a god.
2. We can end this creationism-in-school topic. You know very well why hindu creationism or Taoist creationism isn’t taught in school. Same reason why Christian creationism isn’t taught in school.
3. Your proof that bible is “divinely inspired” are –
a) miracles (which you have not substantiated) b) prophecies (which you have not told me how your book prophecies are more true than other religious books prophecies) …….You haven’t proven anything and now you claim your bible is “divinely inspired” Great.
4. (quote:Please remember your absurd demand that Christians REPRODUCE the miracles in the Bible for you.) = Yes it is reasonable to demand for proof if you make a claim. And so far, you have failed to provide proof for miracles.
5. Again skirting the question. You haven’t proved to me what makes your holy book more true than the other holy books.
6. No majority isn't always right but majority with evidence can be taken as correct. YEC = zero evidence = wrong.
7. (quote:Yet you think you are open minded when you say all religions are false?) = I think its either you are on a monologue or you are lazy to read my posts. For the thousandth time, I never did say all religions are false J.
(quote:sheer patronising and not speaking honestly) = baseless accusations. I admire religions and im not patronizing!
(quote:BTW, do you see the beauty in Christianity?) = yes you did not read again. Lazy!
(quote:Whether I step into a mosque or a temple is totally IRRELEVANT.) = its relevant because it shows how openmidned you are to discussion of other religious books!!! FAIL…..
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Servant
Sources please?