1+1+1 = 1 ?
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Rooney,
Fact is, there are people who are anti-Christians, and I don't know if you count yourself among them. Jesus said that there is no neutral position when it comes to Him. He said that those who are not against Him are FOR Him. But I see a double standard being used here. Christians are called all sorts of names for simply sharing the faith (extremists, fundamentalists etc) but you are now offended if you take a hard stance against Christianity and are being labelled by the Bible as an anti-Christ?
I am not anti xtian, just doesnt agree with the teachings and preachings.
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Hahahha, I only keep nice, kind, understanding, magnanimous, mature and non judgemental christians as friends, the rest I dump them into the rubbish bin and they are not for recycle lest the diseases spread.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Tcmc,
Let's see how well you fare using the Bible, shall we?
1. I already said that the doctrine of the incarnation explained the part about Jesus not knowing about the time of His Second Coming. You are clearly out of touch with what this doctrine is all about. Jesus limited the use of His divine powers but that is a self-imposed limitation, it in no way diminishes His divine nature. Which part of your Bible in Matt 19 has Jesus denying His goodness? Please produce the relevant portion, if you can. Denying means that Jesus said, "I am not good, only God is." or "Don't call me good, I'm not good at all." None of the above verses prove anything remotely close to Jesus not being God. I have given you one clear verse from John 10 and you have not even addressed that.
2. You are committing the fallacy of irrelevant thesis. Just because something is not taught in secular universities today means you disregard it? Had you been living in Europe a few centuries ago you would be learning about it in universities when such universities were started by Christians. Anyway that is besides the point really. Calling it pseudo-science is merely being dismissive. You brag about being scientific but hardly showed yourself to be so. Science tries to uncover causes and effects. This universe has a beginning and thus begs a cause. Agree or not? Either this universe made itself (a logical impossibility) or it was created by a Being that is wholly other and not part of this universe. I challenge you to show how my conclusion is illogical or impossible.
3. I have provided one relevant verse that proved that Jesus claimed to be God, and this was admitted by His enemies. I wait for you to rebutt that. As for your so-called verses, I have already rebutted them as not proving the case.
4. Your fifth point is totally irrelevant which is why I ignored it. What kind of beauty are you talking about? It is in the eye of the beholder. You say it is beautiful, so be it. Beauty is not a determinant of truth.
BroInChrist
1. I see you made a lot of baseless statements there. "Jesus limited his powers. Self-imposed limitation". Sorry where did you get this in the bible? Where did you get this idea that jesus limited his own powers? Sorry but you did not address my question of jesus not being all-knowing. You didnt quote where you saw that jesus self-imposed his powers. Seriously about jesus denying he's good. If he was really god, his answer would be "Rightfully you have known me and seen me because I am who i am (or I am He)" Why go into such pains to give such a dubious/unclear answer? For me and non-trinity christians, its very clear. He was giving credit to god and not himself. But for you, you choose to "read so deeply" into that simple verse........lol
2. I think you know very clearly why Christian creationism is not taught in most schools. Ask yourself why creation stories of Hindusim/Sikhism are not taught in sec schools or NUS. Those reasons will be the same as why creation stories Christianity are not taught in most universities today. of Oh yes and I am so thankful that Christians are no longer in control of the army, government and schools. Look at the inquisition, crusades, colonialism and the dark ages when you guys were in control! Sure no one really knows the beginning of the universe, though there are evidence-backed theories. I can live with the fact that im not allknowing. But you seem to want to prove that you know even the beginning of the universe! You are quite arrogant to say you know the beginning of the universe when there’s no conclusive statement among the scientists who spend their whole lives studying the beginning of the universe. IT IS pseudo-science when theres no empirical evidence. For example, Christians say the earth is 6000 years old and that dinosaurs were all plant eaters. These are all clearly psedo science, created to suit the religion.
3. If you’re talking about john 10 which states that jesus is “one with the father”, that is not definite or conclusive. When I say I am one with my girlfriend whom I love, it doesn’t mean I am my girlfriend. It can be a metaphor to express how much I love my gf, and not literal. So your verse is not clear. I wonder why if the message of jesus is god is so important, yet the bible isn’t very clear and precise about it. I wonder why.
4. So according to you, the other trinites are not beautiful? Oh that’s a pity. Maybe you haven’t studied them well enough! I do think the Christian trinity is beautiful too just like the hindu trinity is unique!
2.
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Originally posted by winsomeea:
Must have inadvertently touched the raw flesh, now comes the question from BrolnChrist. You don't even know my background and called me an atheist here. hahahahahhaha! Hahahahahahahahahhaha! dodododododood!!!
OK, if you are not an atheist then just say so. No need for the ridicule or scorn. So it seems then that you have your own religious beliefs. Why not tell us why you choose your own religion and let us examine your beliefs for truth?
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Originally posted by Rooney_07:
I am not anti xtian, just doesnt agree with the teachings and preachings.
Rooney,
It's one thing to say that you don't agree with the teachings and preachings of Christianity, and you probably don't also agree with the teachings and preachings of other religions as well. But sometimes actions speak louder than words. When it seems that your target is Christianity or that you have singled out Christianity for bashing, then I think the label sticks.
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Originally posted by winsomeea:
Hahahha, I only keep nice, kind, understanding, magnanimous, mature and non judgemental christians as friends, the rest I dump them into the rubbish bin and they are not for recycle lest the diseases spread.
I am asking whether you are being nice here. You are evading the question.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Tcmc,
I have no need to prove to you that their names were Adam and Eve. You either choose to believe it or not. For me it is sufficient that you conceded the point about them being the first human couple.
Concerning the records of Julius Caesar you are again showing your ignorance. Where are the so-called original records? Yes, the Bible has no original records. Even if we have them, any skeptic can still refuse to believe they are the original and stick to their guns. But I suppose you have never heard the term "textual criticism"? Whether Julius Caesar make supernatural claims or not is besides the point.
There is no obligation or onus on me to produce a talking donkey to you. If you are already close-minded to the supernatural you will dismiss any claim of the supernatural without even bothering to take a second look. You are clearly operating on prejudice here. The arrogance and haughtiness you demonstrate exposes the lie that you are truth seeker. A truth seeker demonstrates humility and teachability, qualities that are completely lacking in you.
So are you trolling here or what?
BroInChrist,
It;s not that there's no need. It's just that you have no way to prove that the names of the first humans were adam and eve. Dont be prideful. Just admit you cannot. You're just assuming.
Concerning julius, please go read up a bit about the accounts of eyewitnesses. We know what Caesar looked like and we have a complete history of his life. In turn, general, orator, historian, statesman and lawgiver. We have words written by Caesar himself and words written by both his friends and his enemies. Artifacts confirm his life and death, as do his successors. But when it comes to jesus being god, there are only stories passed down by writing and no originals. Please do see the big difference here. There are also no words written by jesus himself.
Sure you are open to the supernatural? Or are you only open to christian supernaturalism? How about ghosts, possessed taoist mediums, psychics, other Gods and other re ligions miracles? I am open to them, are you?
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u are nt ur gf in terms of status but the bible did tok abt marriage tat in marriage the man and woman becomes 1 flesh...like i said b4, its like being a unit...u and ur gf are different in roles and personalities but upon marriage u become a unit...ever wonder why a frend who hangs ard a couple is called a 3rd party? do we call the guy or the gal in the marriage a 2nd party? we dun...y? cos we perceive both of them as a couple aka a unit tat are bound tgr in love, commitment and law...
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
OK, if you are not an atheist then just say so. No need for the ridicule or scorn. So it seems then that you have your own religious beliefs. Why not tell us why you choose your own religion and let us examine your beliefs for truth?
First you are judgemental towards me, now you want to scrutiinize my beliefs. Isn't it said in the bible not to judge or you will be judged? hahahahah!
To disappoint you, I visit different places of worship and learn about religions, I have no fixed religion for you to find fault with. I am not attached to any religions. hahahahahhaha!oopssss.....................
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ed
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
Servant
Lol.
Big claims need big evidence. Again I stress the difference. Qin Shi Huang, Julius Caesar or any historical figure did not claim that they are divine or that they flew up into the skies. Neither did their followers and loyalties wrote books to tell people that they rose from dead, walked on water or flew into space.
You see the big difference?
It makes sense, there are original records, eye witnesses accounts, then it's all ok.
But when it doesn't make sense....and NO original records (like the bible).......then it is only as good as a religious/faith scripture.
WOULD YOU believe a book that is 4000 years old, no records and say that Santa Claus flew to the moon or Chang Er flew to the moon with her rabbit?
No, but I will believe a Book that originates from plenty of archived manuscripts and credible archaeological evidence, that has eyewitness accounts, references from non-Christian sources and a present-day church (with historical roots all the way back to the time of Jesus Christ) that is a visible symbol of everything that the Bible stands for.
Actually, all this is from the article that I posted which makes all this as clear as daylight. So looking at your silence on this article, logic would now suggest that you don't have an answer to all this, despite your pretence of being open and knowledgeble.
Just a friendly piece of advice: it's okay to say 'I don't know' or 'perhaps I am wrong', really. You won't lose any respect for that.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
I am asking whether you are being nice here. You are evading the question.
Why do you take the post so personally and offensively? That is general post not meant for replying to any posts here. tsk tsk tsk, why let your emotions rule over your brain?
I am nice to nice christians, to those that are not nice I . . . .. . .. . if they cause harm I will not let them go.
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
BroInChrist
1. I see you made a lot of baseless statements there. "Jesus limited his powers. Self-imposed limitation". Sorry where did you get this in the bible? Where did you get this idea that jesus limited his own powers? Sorry but you did not address my question of jesus not being all-knowing. You didnt quote where you saw that jesus self-imposed his powers. Seriously about jesus denying he's good. If he was really god, his answer would be "Rightfully you have known me and seen me because I am who i am (or I am He)" Why go into such pains to give such a dubious/unclear answer? For me and non-trinity christians, its very clear. He was giving credit to god and not himself. But for you, you choose to "read so deeply" into that simple verse........lol
2. I think you know very clearly why Christian creationism is not taught in most schools. Ask yourself why creation stories of Hindusim/Sikhism are not taught in sec schools or NUS. Those reasons will be the same as why creation stories Christianity are not taught in most universities today. of Oh yes and I am so thankful that Christians are no longer in control of the army, government and schools. Look at the inquisition, crusades, colonialism and the dark ages when you guys were in control! Sure no one really knows the beginning of the universe, though there are evidence-backed theories. I can live with the fact that im not allknowing. But you seem to want to prove that you know even the beginning of the universe! You are quite arrogant to say you know the beginning of the universe when there’s no conclusive statement among the scientists who spend their whole lives studying the beginning of the universe. IT IS pseudo-science when theres no empirical evidence. For example, Christians say the earth is 6000 years old and that dinosaurs were all plant eaters. These are all clearly psedo science, created to suit the religion.
3. If you’re talking about john 10 which states that jesus is “one with the father”, that is not definite or conclusive. When I say I am one with my girlfriend whom I love, it doesn’t mean I am my girlfriend. It can be a metaphor to express how much I love my gf, and not literal. So your verse is not clear. I wonder why if the message of jesus is god is so important, yet the bible isn’t very clear and precise about it. I wonder why.
4. So according to you, the other trinites are not beautiful? Oh that’s a pity. Maybe you haven’t studied them well enough! I do think the Christian trinity is beautiful too just like the hindu trinity is unique!
2.
Tcmc,
1. To cut the long story short, please read up on the doctrine of the incarnation here http://creation.com/incarnation-why-god-became-man. It would be casting peals before swine if I simply respond and you just ignore it. You said I make baseless statements but I think it is your ignorance that is showing.
2. Jesus asked the question "Why call me good?" How is that a denial of His own divine goodness? He is only asking the person to check his own words. It is YOU who failed to read the passage simply. I am going no deeper than what the text literally said.
3. Again the reason for why creationism is not being taught in our schools is a political/secular reason, and not because creationism has been shown or proven to be false. Please know the proper distinctions. Just because something is not taught in school does not mean it is false. And just because something is being taught in school does not mean it is true.
4. Your point about Christians not in control of the government or what not is the fallacy of irrelevant thesis. Why bring this in at all? It's a red herring and a distraction. I could jolly well reply by saying that I am even more thankful that atheists are not running the nation. God knows how many will perish in atheistic regimes and we have already seen the sordid record of such reign in the last century.
5. Regarding the beginning of the universe, the fact is that we KNOW that the universe has a beginning. Therefore logic demands that it has a cause. Why should it be arrogant of me to say that God is the cause? It is scientific materialism (a piece of philosophy) that refuses to allow a divine foot into the door, rather than the will to follow the evidence wherever it leads. You say it is arrogant of me to credit God with being the cause of the universe, but I say it is foolish of you to think that the universe made itself from nothing. And if you then claim that you do not know what created the universe, then you ought to be silent when others claim that God is creator, unless you know better or have something better to offer.
6. Not all Christians believe in a 6000 year old universe. But have you considered the evidence for such a claim, or you just dismiss them outright without even thinking about it? How reasonable is such an attitude? Does such behaviour deserve to be called truth-seeking? Sincere truth seeking? Not at all. You should examine yourself honestly whether you are sincere or not. Nothing in your postings so far support the claim to be a sincere truth seeker.
7. Re John 10, it is CONCLUSIVE because that's what the enemies of Jesus understood Jesus to mean. You are not a Jew, and you will never appreciate the impact of those words. In fact you are trying to dilute those words as it would sound to a pious Jew in Jesus' day. You are confused and unclear, but to His hearers it was crystal clear that Jesus claimed to be God, which is why they wanted to stone Him. And you failed to explain why Jesus did not quickly correct the Jews who wanted to stone Him if He really did not make the claim.
8. Again the aesthetics of the trinities of other religions are IRRELEVANT. So what if I say they are beautiful? Beautiful in what sense? What difference does it make? Like I said, I am defending the Christian faith from those who seek to bash it. Please stick to the discussion.
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Originally posted by winsomeea:
Why do you take the post so personally and offensively? That is general post not meant for replying to any posts here. tsk tsk tsk, why let your emotions rule over your brain?
I am nice to nice christians, to those that are not nice I . . . .. . .. . if they cause harm I will not let them go.
Winsomeea,
I am not clear what you meant. Are you being defensive? I am only asking if you are being nice here, in this forum.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Winsomeea,
I am not clear what you meant. Are you being defensive? I am only asking if you are being nice here, in this forum.
well, it all depends how you perceive it. To some christians, I am not nice when I disagree with Christianity. Depends. And what is your motive of keep on asking, are you into fault finding?I am glad I have a good friend who is a nice christian.
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
BroInChrist,
It;s not that there's no need. It's just that you have no way to prove that the names of the first humans were adam and eve. Dont be prideful. Just admit you cannot. You're just assuming.
Concerning julius, please go read up a bit about the accounts of eyewitnesses. We know what Caesar looked like and we have a complete history of his life. In turn, general, orator, historian, statesman and lawgiver. We have words written by Caesar himself and words written by both his friends and his enemies. Artifacts confirm his life and death, as do his successors. But when it comes to jesus being god, there are only stories passed down by writing and no originals. Please do see the big difference here. There are also no words written by jesus himself.
Sure you are open to the supernatural? Or are you only open to christian supernaturalism? How about ghosts, possessed taoist mediums, psychics, other Gods and other re ligions miracles? I am open to them, are you?
Tcmc,
Why do you presume that I even want to prove to you the names of Adam and Eve? For me, the Bible is clear what their names are, and I am happy to accept the Bible's word for it. So please don't go on a red herring. The point is that there is nothing that we know in science that would undermine the Bible's teaching concerning the creation of the first human pair.
Concerning Julius Caesar, please show us where we can get the ORIGINAL documents about him.
You are confused and self-contradictory. An atheist who is open to the supernatural? You seem to forget what being an atheist implies. Or are you confused that you should be agnostic instead?
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Originally posted by winsomeea:
well, it all depends how you perceive it. To some christians, I am not nice when I disagree with Christianity. Depends. And what is your motive of keep on asking, are you into fault finding?I am glad I have a good friend who is a nice christian.
Just asking you so that you would do some soul-searching. You said that many Christians are being nasty in Buddhist forums, I am asking whether you are not yourself guilty of that in this forum. It's a question for you to answer for yourself. I keep asking because you seem to miss the point of my asking.
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abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz , wow!
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to servant,
tcmc's logic is this...wadever is harder to believe requires more evidence for it to be credible...hence the miracles in the bible needs more evidence to support since its harder to believe tat they are possible then the existence of julius caesar...
i agree wif wad u n broinchrist have been sharing but tats cos i am christian also...i told tcmc b4 alredi tat if one doesnt put on the creationistic mind, one cannot understand how a creationistic religion establishes its teachings and doctrines....i tink he understands wad i mean...
to tcmc,
do u notice tat broinchrist , servant and i are going along the same line although he may nt have given tat many illustrations other than quoting from bible? i told u b4 tat creationists will agree almost the same things as other creationists of the same religion...
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Originally posted by despondent:
u are nt ur gf in terms of status but the bible did tok abt marriage tat in marriage the man and woman becomes 1 flesh...like i said b4, its like being a unit...u and ur gf are different in roles and personalities but upon marriage u become a unit...ever wonder why a frend who hangs ard a couple is called a 3rd party? do we call the guy or the gal in the marriage a 2nd party? we dun...y? cos we perceive both of them as a couple aka a unit tat are bound tgr in love, commitment and law...
Allow me to interject with one comment. Why do we call marriage the joining of husband and wife as one flesh? The nonbeliever has no answer, but the Bible provides the true answer. A husband and wife is one flesh in marriage because a man and woman was one flesh historically. God made Adam and from Adam's side God made Eve. If it were not true historically it would not be true today. And it is also in Genesis that we have a good reason why same-sex marriage should be forbidden. God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve, or Eve and Evelyn.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Just asking you so that you would do some soul-searching. You said that many Christians are being nasty in Buddhist forums, I am asking whether you are not yourself guilty of that in this forum. It's a question for you to answer for yourself. I keep asking because you seem to miss the point of my asking.
Oh, It is so clear you are faultfinding, hahahahahhahahahahahha! So judgemental, you will be judged by God!
hahahahahah, your response is self pawned lol!!!!!!!!!!!! hahahahahahhahahahah! That is why i said it depends on how one perceives if I am nice. To christians, when i disagree with the bible I am not nice, you are one of them. To those kind, understanding and mature christians, they have no problem with people disagreeing with Christianity. So I am "guilty of that in this forum" Hey you are also guilty of finding fault , taking the specks out from others but you refuse to take the speck out of you, hahahahahahahahh!
Hey, how I see your response to non christians here is absolutely without love. THE ESSENCE OF CHRISTIANITY IS LOVE, THAT IS WHAT GOD WANTS HIS CHILDREN TO HAVE. AS A CHILD OF GOD, IF YOU REFUSE TO SHOW LOVE THEN YOU ARE NOT FIT TO TALK ABOUT GOD.
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i noe...i am using tat eg for marriage to explain wad jesus meant by he and God are one...they exist as a unit called God...
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Jesus, Holy Spirit and God are one, why is the holy spirit left out?
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its part of tat unit...3-in-1 unit...when jesus said he and God are one, the holy spirit was nt yet released to mankind...Holy spirit was sent to earth only after jesus resurrected and went back to heaven...its in the bible...
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Tcmc,
1. To cut the long story short, please read up on the doctrine of the incarnation here http://creation.com/incarnation-why-god-became-man. It would be casting peals before swine if I simply respond and you just ignore it. You said I make baseless statements but I think it is your ignorance that is showing.
2. Jesus asked the question "Why call me good?" How is that a denial of His own divine goodness? He is only asking the person to check his own words. It is YOU who failed to read the passage simply. I am going no deeper than what the text literally said.
3. Again the reason for why creationism is not being taught in our schools is a political/secular reason, and not because creationism has been shown or proven to be false. Please know the proper distinctions. Just because something is not taught in school does not mean it is false. And just because something is being taught in school does not mean it is true.
4. Your point about Christians not in control of the government or what not is the fallacy of irrelevant thesis. Why bring this in at all? It's a red herring and a distraction. I could jolly well reply by saying that I am even more thankful that atheists are not running the nation. God knows how many will perish in atheistic regimes and we have already seen the sordid record of such reign in the last century.
5. Regarding the beginning of the universe, the fact is that we KNOW that the universe has a beginning. Therefore logic demands that it has a cause. Why should it be arrogant of me to say that God is the cause? It is scientific materialism (a piece of philosophy) that refuses to allow a divine foot into the door, rather than the will to follow the evidence wherever it leads. You say it is arrogant of me to credit God with being the cause of the universe, but I say it is foolish of you to think that the universe made itself from nothing. And if you then claim that you do not know what created the universe, then you ought to be silent when others claim that God is creator, unless you know better or have something better to offer.
6. Not all Christians believe in a 6000 year old universe. But have you considered the evidence for such a claim, or you just dismiss them outright without even thinking about it? How reasonable is such an attitude? Does such behaviour deserve to be called truth-seeking? Sincere truth seeking? Not at all. You should examine yourself honestly whether you are sincere or not. Nothing in your postings so far support the claim to be a sincere truth seeker.
7. Re John 10, it is CONCLUSIVE because that's what the enemies of Jesus understood Jesus to mean. You are not a Jew, and you will never appreciate the impact of those words. In fact you are trying to dilute those words as it would sound to a pious Jew in Jesus' day. You are confused and unclear, but to His hearers it was crystal clear that Jesus claimed to be God, which is why they wanted to stone Him. And you failed to explain why Jesus did not quickly correct the Jews who wanted to stone Him if He really did not make the claim.
8. Again the aesthetics of the trinities of other religions are IRRELEVANT. So what if I say they are beautiful? Beautiful in what sense? What difference does it make? Like I said, I am defending the Christian faith from those who seek to bash it. Please stick to the discussion.
1. Where did this incarnation doctrine come from? Or was it invented by men? If the message of incarnation is so important, why isn’t it clear in the bible? If it is the main message of the bible, it should be clear. Instead you quote verses that are unclear (no john 10 isn’t direct that is why there are alternative interpretations of who jesus is). If the bible is super crystal clear about jesus being god, very few people would question his nature. Why does your god want to leave people guessing? It’s dubious! Ever wonder why there are so many different interpretations among Christians about who jesus is or doctrinal differences? Answer is because your bible is too generic and unclear and believers interpret it in a thousand ways! I shall look past your name calling tactics (swine).
2. Again, because the bible is too generic and unclear, that is why some Christians think he’s god, some Christians don’t think he is. That’s why some Christians come up with the incarnation doctrine, some Christians don’t. Even jews who know the Hebrew language and believe in the old testament will tell you that God isn’t triune. (Note that your religion is copied/adapted from Judaism)
3.No no. Wait. Tell me WHY Hinduism creationism isn’t taught in schools? Please I need to know the answer.
4. I brought it up because you claim so proudly that Christians were in control a few hundred years back. Therefore I refute your point by telling you that theocracy isn’t good.
5. You’re arrogant because you claim an invisible friend of yours created everything, based on a 4000 year old book riddled with errors. That is why youre arrogant. Scientists who spend their whole lives studying and they are not conclusive. Yet you are conclusive just because your little book says so? Just because you feel good about it? Oh man, grow up dude. We are unsure of the beginning of the universe doesn’t mean we cannot elimate riduclous reasons. Like a fairy creating the universe. No. Santa claus creating the universe no. A 4000 year old god who said bats are birds creating the universe? No. I can dismiss that. But still I don’t know what was the beginning. Its not that I have nothing to offer. I told you there are theories. You can read up.
6. (Not all Christians believe in a 6000 year old universe) Again the bible is so generic and unclear, Christians interpret it in so many ways. From tongues, healings, prosperity gospel, nature of jesus to nature of heaven and hell, Christians quote the bible to say different things,
7. Excuse me if I were a jew I would stone him because he was being blasphemous, NOT BECAUSE HE WAS GOD. Even jews today hold the belief that jesus was misguided and a false prophet!
8. Just seeing if you’re open minded about other religions. Seems like you are not.