1+1+1 = 1 ?
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Tcmc,
1. As far as the Bible is concerned, anyone who denies that Jesus is God in the flesh is the anti-Christ. So tell me how can such be considered Christian? Calling oneself "Christian" is easy. And nonbelievers like you easily label anyone who profess belief in Jesus or the Bible a Christian without due regards to the actual Bible teachings.
2. I do not make experiences the test of truth, it at best only supports the truth. Or if something is true, then certain experiences should confirm it or be consistent with it. Experiences are personal to holder and are notoriously hard to prove or disprove. Yet in the mouth of people of integrity they can lend credible support to the truth of something being proclaimed. What makes Christianity unique is the Person of Jesus Christ. Who He claimed to be and what He came to do.
3. I am not using the Scriptures to prove that there is a God. I am not arguing that God exists because the Bible says so. I am using the Scriptures to show you that the teaching of the Trinity is clearly there. Can a Hindu or Muslim prove his own Scriptures? I don't know and I see no reason to take your word for it. I am not here to whack other religions, but to defend my own religion from the whacking of others, and I can see a few consistent ones here, including you.
4. You said that the trinity in other religions are also unique. The impression you want to give is that Christianity is also man-made religions which have their own trinities. But you are clearly failing to see the difference between polytheism and monotheism. In the former you can always cobble three gods together and call them a trinity. Tell me how to do that under monotheism? The Christian concept of Trinity is such that no man can think of it. Nor would anyone be up to it to conceive of it, were it not revealed from God Himself. The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is a mystery and many throughout Christianity have bled to defend it from heretics and attacks. If Christianity was a man-made religion, why would anyone want to make it any more difficult? Please give me a good reason.
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Originally posted by sgdiehard:
there is no need to provide answers as entertainment. did i call you names? authenticate what you said!! it was the many non christians here who call you troll....
sgdiehard,
Again, no serious answers. Your answers are shallow and all of no substance. At least BroInChrist tries....and despondent also tried.
You? Only lame comments that are unrelated to the TS.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Tcmc,
1. As far as the Bible is concerned, anyone who denies that Jesus is God in the flesh is the anti-Christ. So tell me how can such be considered Christian? Calling oneself "Christian" is easy. And nonbelievers like you easily label anyone who profess belief in Jesus or the Bible a Christian without due regards to the actual Bible teachings.
2. I do not make experiences the test of truth, it at best only supports the truth. Or if something is true, then certain experiences should confirm it or be consistent with it. Experiences are personal to holder and are notoriously hard to prove or disprove. Yet in the mouth of people of integrity they can lend credible support to the truth of something being proclaimed. What makes Christianity unique is the Person of Jesus Christ. Who He claimed to be and what He came to do.
3. I am not using the Scriptures to prove that there is a God. I am not arguing that God exists because the Bible says so. I am using the Scriptures to show you that the teaching of the Trinity is clearly there. Can a Hindu or Muslim prove his own Scriptures? I don't know and I see no reason to take your word for it. I am not here to whack other religions, but to defend my own religion from the whacking of others, and I can see a few consistent ones here, including you.
4. You said that the trinity in other religions are also unique. The impression you want to give is that Christianity is also man-made religions which have their own trinities. But you are clearly failing to see the difference between polytheism and monotheism. In the former you can always cobble three gods together and call them a trinity. Tell me how to do that under monotheism? The Christian concept of Trinity is such that no man can think of it. Nor would anyone be up to it to conceive of it, were it not revealed from God Himself. The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is a mystery and many throughout Christianity have bled to defend it from heretics and attacks. If Christianity was a man-made religion, why would anyone want to make it any more difficult? Please give me a good reason.
1. You got to get out of your narrow perspective for a while. As far as the bible is concerned, there are many verses in it that tells us that jesus isnt a God. That is WHY there are non-trinity christians to begin with. They got their beliefs from the bible.
2. You have said a lot but you did not really say what proves your god. At first, you said there's no evidence. Now you say your experiences MIGHT or might not be evidence. Are you confused? The person of jesus is special and unique in christianity, just like lord krishna, muhammed and allah, the sikh god and the monkey god are all special and unique in all their respective religions. It's again, like I said, all the same.
3. Oh my goodness. do you see that you are contradicting yourself? You say that you are not using the bible to prove there's God, but you use the bible to prove there's trinity? You are very incoherent in your statements.
4. Yes I keep telling you that the Christian monothesitic trinity is unique and special to christians. Just like other types and kinds of trinities are all unique and special to all the other religions. Why do you keep wanting to prove that your trinity is the only real one? Arent you trying to whack other religions indirectly??? All the trinities are beautiful in their own unique way. Agree?
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Tcmc,
Why would you think that Adam and Eve were not real people? Jesus taught that they were real. So did Paul. In fact the Bible teaches that Adam and Eve were real people. Other than anti-Biblical bigotry at work I don't see any reason to think that Jesus was lying about Adam and Eve. Paul taught that Jesus was the Second Adam, and that all humans are dead in Adam. Paul certainly saw Adam and Eve as real people. And Jews are very particular about ancestry.
Can I prove that to you? No. But can I show you that this is reasonable? Certainly! All humans go back to the first human pair who were directly created by God. If it were possible to do so, you can trace our human genealogies all the way back and I am confident to assert that you would end up with Adam and Eve.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Tcmc,
Why would you think that Adam and Eve were not real people? Jesus taught that they were real. So did Paul. In fact the Bible teaches that Adam and Eve were real people. Other than anti-Biblical bigotry at work I don't see any reason to think that Jesus was lying about Adam and Eve. Paul taught that Jesus was the Second Adam, and that all humans are dead in Adam. Paul certainly saw Adam and Eve as real people. And Jews are very particular about ancestry.
Can I prove that to you? No. But can I show you that this is reasonable? Certainly! All humans go back to the first human pair who were directly created by God. If it were possible to do so, you can trace our human genealogies all the way back and I am confident to assert that you would end up with Adam and Eve.
BroInChrist,
You know what's your biggest problem here?
First you say there's no evidence to prove your God, because empiricism is "limited". Then now you keep using your bible as "evidence" to prove that certain people exist. You contradict yourself and you make me very confused.
Tell me once and for all, is the bible an evidence for you? If the bible is evidence, then tell me what is the difference between your bible and other religious books?
You use your bible as evidence to prove that donkeys can talk and that adam and eve are real. Other religions also prove their Gods and miracles using their scripture. What is the difference?
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Tell me coherently and clearly. What is the difference between your book and other religious books since every religion uses their book to prove their Gods and miracles?
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I think its best to look at Religions and/or Faith based upon their similarities rather than their differences...ultimately being happy is the most important....
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
I think its best to look at Religions and/or Faith based upon their similarities rather than their differences...ultimately being happy is the most important....
Yes that is what I am trying to show BroInChrist here. All religions are the same. And unique in their own beautiful ways. But BroInChrist keep trying to show me that his book is "better" than other religious books.
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Tcmc,
1. Here's my challenge to you, you show me those direct verses that PROVE Jesus is not God in the flesh and I will show you how wrong you are. Deal? I lay it on the line again, the Bible teaches the Trinity. It is also in the early creeds. It is one of the definitive doctrines of the faith.
2. Since when did I say there is no evidence for God? Have you heard of the term General Revelation? Or what some called Natural Theology? The Bible says that the invisible things of God are seen in the created things. Creation declares a Creator just like a painting points to a painter. And I said that experiences are supporting testimonies to the truth of something but by themselves are not proof of something.
3. You are playing semantics here. Because there are unique personalities in different religions means therefore all religions are the same? Just because you are you and I am I so therefore we are all the same???? See how flawed such a reasoning is? We are only the same in one sense but different in another. I hope you are not toying with me here. Some call you a troll here, but I am giving you the benefit of the doubt. Like I said, I am not here to bash other religions but to defend mine from the bashing of others.
4. How am I contradicting myself? Do you even know what a contradiction is to begin with? I am not saying that the Bible proves there is a God. The Bible ASSUMES the existence of God to begin with. What I am saying is that the Bible teaches that God is triune. And if you are telling me that the Bible does not teach that, then I have already refuted you on that.
5. Whether other religions have their trinities or not is not my concern, and I don't think it is your's either, if you are honest to admit it. You just see it as a point to be used in whacking the Christian faith, am I right? I am simply explaining to you the difference between polytheism and monotheism and its relation to the Trinity.
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
Yes that is what I am trying to show BroInChrist here. All religions are the same. And unique in their own beautiful ways. But BroInChrist keep trying to show me that his book is "better" than other religious books.
I understand your point of view....but I know some Christian churches say a lot of bad things about other religions....rather be fanatical, why dun we just be rational? It all depends on the priests/pastors....some are very aggressive and controversial, others are receptive and passive....
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Tcmc,
The problem lies in your confusion and shallowness and repeated refusal to read properly what I wrote. You try to swim in deep waters when you should stick to the wading pool. I don't know how knowledgeable you are about other religions but I can clearly see that you are clearly out of depth here when it comes to Christianity. And mind you I am no amateur or novice when it comes to the Christian faith.
I never said there is no evidence for God. There is a huge difference between saying that empircism is limited and saying there is no evidence for God. Please don't anyhow put words in my mouth. Neither am I saying that the Bible proves the existence of Adam and Eve. I am saying that the Bible teaches that Adam and Eve are real people. And using the Bible as a lens to look at the world makes the most sense. It is hardly illogical to reason that if we can trace our history back that we would arrive at the first human couple whom the Bible called Adam and Eve.
Neither am I using the Bible to prove that donkeys can talk. I do not even entertain the idea that all animals can talk for that matter! Please don't think that the Bible is some kind of Narnian world ok? The only times when animals could talk was when the devil spoke through the serpent and when God opened the mouth of the donkey and made it talk to Balaam. Both times involved supernatural intervention. Can I prove to you that it did happened? No I cannot just like I can't prove to you that Julius Ceasar was assassinated either, we simply take historians at their word who took the time to search out ancient documents. But I can tell you that in a world where the supernatural realm exists that such things are not impossible, that supernatural beings can intervene and make animals talk. I only have to argue the case that miracles are possible, while you have the unenviable burden of proving that miracles are impossible.
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Demon Bane,
I think to just look at the similarities among religions is really (pardon me) only superficially skimming the surface and ignoring the fundamental differences between them. Mutual understanding involves taking the time to understand differences as well. We don't have to accept them as true, but we have to accept them as what others choose to believe. Ignoring differences does not go a long way in helping mutal understanding at all. We can affirm what is similar and tolerate those that we disagree with. Come to think of that, that's what tolerance is all about isn't it? To bear with those whom we disagree or dislike. There's nothing to tolerate if everything is accepted. It is when we do not accept something but we choose to let go and let live where we exercise tolerance and forbearance. Agree?
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Tcmc,
1. Here's my challenge to you, you show me those direct verses that PROVE Jesus is not God in the flesh and I will show you how wrong you are. Deal? I lay it on the line again, the Bible teaches the Trinity. It is also in the early creeds. It is one of the definitive doctrines of the faith.
2. Since when did I say there is no evidence for God? Have you heard of the term General Revelation? Or what some called Natural Theology? The Bible says that the invisible things of God are seen in the created things. Creation declares a Creator just like a painting points to a painter. And I said that experiences are supporting testimonies to the truth of something but by themselves are not proof of something.
3. You are playing semantics here. Because there are unique personalities in different religions means therefore all religions are the same? Just because you are you and I am I so therefore we are all the same???? See how flawed such a reasoning is? We are only the same in one sense but different in another. I hope you are not toying with me here. Some call you a troll here, but I am giving you the benefit of the doubt. Like I said, I am not here to bash other religions but to defend mine from the bashing of others.
4. How am I contradicting myself? Do you even know what a contradiction is to begin with? I am not saying that the Bible proves there is a God. The Bible ASSUMES the existence of God to begin with. What I am saying is that the Bible teaches that God is triune. And if you are telling me that the Bible does not teach that, then I have already refuted you on that.
5. Whether other religions have their trinities or not is not my concern, and I don't think it is your's either, if you are honest to admit it. You just see it as a point to be used in whacking the Christian faith, am I right? I am simply explaining to you the difference between polytheism and monotheism and its relation to the Trinity.
1. Sure I will. I am using the bible as "evidence" for your sake, because you are christian.
In Mark 24, the bible says jesus isn't all-knowing because he doesnt know the end time. Now, a logical person would ask, "If the christian god is all-knowing, then how can jesus be 100% god and 100% man?" It doesnt make sense.
In Mat 19, jesus denies being good and attributes goodness to god only.
Non-trinity Christians use these verses and other verses to justify that jesus isn't god. You also use some verses to justify that jesus is god right? Show me some?
2. General revelation and Natural theology are all pseudo-science, not accepted by any universities, scientists or academic institutions. Again , you assume a complex university must be created. Not necessarily.
3. You claim your god is the only true one using scripture. I dont see how that makes your religion any different from other religions since every one of them uses scripture to "prove" too.
4. No you have not refuted me yet regarding bible teaching trinity. I have shown you some verses above that show that jesus isnt god.
5. You havent answered my 5th point. Do you agree all the trinities are beautiful and unique in their own way?
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Demon Bane,
I think to just look at the similarities among religions is really (pardon me) only superficially skimming the surface and ignoring the fundamental differences between them. Mutual understanding involves taking the time to understand differences as well. We don't have to accept them as true, but we have to accept them as what others choose to believe. Ignoring differences does not go a long way in helping mutal understanding at all. We can affirm what is similar and tolerate those that we disagree with. Come to think of that, that's what tolerance is all about isn't it? To bear with those whom we disagree or dislike. There's nothing to tolerate if everything is accepted. It is when we do not accept something but we choose to let go and let live where we exercise tolerance and forbearance. Agree?
You have a point there too....but sometimes I have fanatical christian frens that I'll disagree with....I respect everyone's own choice of doctrine and beliefs.... as long as their beliefs make them better persons....
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Tcmc,
The problem lies in your confusion and shallowness and repeated refusal to read properly what I wrote. You try to swim in deep waters when you should stick to the wading pool. I don't know how knowledgeable you are about other religions but I can clearly see that you are clearly out of depth here when it comes to Christianity. And mind you I am no amateur or novice when it comes to the Christian faith.
I never said there is no evidence for God. There is a huge difference between saying that empircism is limited and saying there is no evidence for God. Please don't anyhow put words in my mouth. Neither am I saying that the Bible proves the existence of Adam and Eve. I am saying that the Bible teaches that Adam and Eve are real people. And using the Bible as a lens to look at the world makes the most sense. It is hardly illogical to reason that if we can trace our history back that we would arrive at the first human couple whom the Bible called Adam and Eve.
Neither am I using the Bible to prove that donkeys can talk. I do not even entertain the idea that all animals can talk for that matter! Please don't think that the Bible is some kind of Narnian world ok? The only times when animals could talk was when the devil spoke through the serpent and when God opened the mouth of the donkey and made it talk to Balaam. Both times involved supernatural intervention. Can I prove to you that it did happened? No I cannot just like I can't prove to you that Julius Ceasar was assassinated either, we simply take historians at their word who took the time to search out ancient documents. But I can tell you that in a world where the supernatural realm exists that such things are not impossible, that supernatural beings can intervene and make animals talk. I only have to argue the case that miracles are possible, while you have the unenviable burden of proving that miracles are impossible.
BroInChrist,
Yes of course we certainly did start from one male and one female ... haha..but like you admitted you cannot prove that their names were adam and eve in a magical garden with a magical fruit and with a talking snake. You can only say "it's true because the bible says so".
Please dont use julius caesar to support your case because there are original records of julius caesar's life and original records of eyewitnesses. There are no originals of the bible. Also, records of julius caesar's life did not make supernatural claims unlike the bible.
You cant prove or reproduce the talking donkey because it's not real. Its just a story to teach, not a real account. So I shall dismiss your claim because you cant provide evidence.
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YbUEZfJJaQ
An interesting "theory" based upon newly discovered "facts"....
Any guys wanna explain their point of views ?
Any takers on this ?
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
Servant
I have already addressed your question. You didnt read properly. Dont be lazy. This is the 2nd time I am answering you --
Servant, I think you failed to read our discussions properly.
I say more evidence is needed for the bible because the bible claims "supernatural" things in it like healings, ascending into the heavens etc.
Pompeii records, newton/edison/einstien writings do not make claims that they are gods or that they ascended into the heavens. And people have found the remains of Pompeii and original writings of the scientists.
Just like what Rooney said, teracotta army, Pompeii are all real and physical and visible. THe originals are all there.
As for the bible, it has made MANY supernatural claims, which have yet to be proven. SO PLEASE prove the supernatural claims in the bible.
Since you have 'already addressed' the article that I posted, I'm sure you won't mind pasting your answer here again right?
This has to be dealt with properly first before we talk about your 'supernatural' point.
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
BroInChrist,
Yes of course we certainly did start from one male and one female ... haha..but like you admitted you cannot prove that their names were adam and eve in a magical garden with a magical fruit and with a talking snake. You can only say "it's true because the bible says so".
Please dont use julius caesar to support your case because there are original records of julius caesar's life and original records of eyewitnesses. There are no originals of the bible. Also, records of julius caesar's life did not make supernatural claims unlike the bible.
You cant prove or reproduce the talking donkey because it's not real. Its just a story to teach, not a real account. So I shall dismiss your claim because you cant provide evidence.
Pls point us to these 'original records of Julius Caesar's life'.
Yes, there are original records of eyewitnesses, but were you the original eyewitness? How do you know the historian wasn't making it up?
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Servant
After so many posts, you still dont get it. It's not about US seeing it (i dont have to see it to know its true) personally but it's ABOUT -
1. The problem is there are no originals of the bible. That's the problem
2. Supernatural claims. Julius caesar didnt claim to be divine or that he flew into heaven
So more needs to be done to authenticate the bible
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Let's just respect each other's strong beliefs and carry on with life....no point arguing mah...Hahaha!
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
sgdiehard,
Again, no serious answers. Your answers are shallow and all of no substance. At least BroInChrist tries....and despondent also tried.
You? Only lame comments that are unrelated to the TS.
Tcmc,
I didn't give you any answers, so how can my answers be shallow, no substance, lame?
please authenticate your accusation that I call names!
please explain hindu trinity, taoist trinity, buddhist trinity!
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Originally posted by sgdiehard:
Tcmc,
I didn't give you any answers, so how can my answers be shallow, no substance, lame?
please authenticate your accusation that I call names!
please explain hindu trinity, taoist trinity, buddhist trinity!
sgdiehard,
1. You have not authenticate the miracles and accounts in the bible and yet now you tell me to authenticate lame stuff.
2. The different trinities in different religions are all beautiful, including the christian trinity! Why not you pick up some books or do some simple googling?
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We must be reminded that this thread is within the Christians' forum...why dun Christians come to Buddhists forum ? Just curious....
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
Servant
After so many posts, you still dont get it. It's not about US seeing it (i dont have to see it to know its true) personally but it's ABOUT -
1. The problem is there are no originals of the bible. That's the problem
2. Supernatural claims. Julius caesar didnt claim to be divine or that he flew into heaven
So more needs to be done to authenticate the bible
Do you realise your contradiction? If you don't have to see to know that something is true, then what is your problem with the Bible? There are little or almost no surviving original texts, drawings, photos, video recordings blah blah of many ancient events that have happened (I've already quoted the eg of Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon River, or the existence of the Carthaginian empire amongst others), but they are widely believed to have happened according to the professional research of historians.
Why do you apply different standards to the Bible just because of what it claims?
You say it's different because the Bible 'has supernatural events'. I'm sorry, but your method is hardly scientific, logical, professional or accepted by mainstream science and archaeology.
And I'm still waiting for your answer to that article I posted which will save everyone here a lot of time because it answers most of the questions about the Bible's authenticity. Here, let me post it for you again:
http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/are-the-gospels-myth
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
BroInChrist,
You use Genesis. Please provide evidence that adam and eve were actual people in history and that the snake did really talk in Genesis.
What you ask for is very valid, I believe many are interested to know!