something to ask the christian frens here..
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hope im not offending anyone by posting here.. but somethings i really i wish to discuss.. it took me a long struggle to decide to post this cos i too have a lot of christian frens.. i really afraid someone might get offended by my post.. but i really have doubts..
it is something regarding a city harvest service months ago..
i was invited by my fren to a city harvest service few months ago.. it was held at indoor stadium because they had invited an oversea pastor.. (forgotten the name le.. but according to what they say.. he is very famous and had been going all over the world.. i think he is call pastor heen or sth.. )
these are the things that he actually said.. every word came from his month..
he mentioned that a town near egypt, before the town was taken over by the egyptian, these ppl believed in jesus, and they never got sick until egypt took over the town..
he too mentioned he once saved a long-term wheel-chaired lady to be able to walk again by just saying that he will give miracle in the name of god.
at the later part.. he demostrated something that is call "miracle". the pastor asked wheel-chaired patients.. bed-widden patients, patients with uncurable diseases like cancer.. to come onto the stage..
he actually said this to the patient " by the name of lord jesus, i give u miracle". then these patients either they would claimed they felt better, or the person will walk again etc.. at the end of it.. he even demostrated the "great miracle".
i din see the "great miracle". cos i really feel very unpleasant.
my fren believed in this.. and he hoped i would believe too.. but the fact im really disturbed.. i have a family of only i being the healthier one, the rest are all haunt by illness.
i do see ppl actually believing this, crying, shedding tears when they see this scene..
i really want to ask the christians ppl in this forum, how many of u will actually believe so when u see this??
i still insist im not trying to offend anyone by asking this questions, but i really wanna know.. best if there are ppl from city harvest who witness this too to give a pov -
First of all, my personal opinion of City Harvest is very likely to start a flame war.Now I am a Methodist and I believe that faith and belief , though cornerstones of the Christian faith, they need to be tempered by love, humility and empathy for others, and that includes not exploiting the suffering of others and doing such "megastar" deeds to attract crowds.
Live a good life and be answerable to your conscience and God.That's all that is needed.Building a grand church does not guarantee you a place in Heaven or a good afterlife.We are all equal before God. -
I can tell u frankly on the things u saw about people able to walk just by hearing the "word". They r bullsh!t. If they are't bullsh!t, why do they ask people to give money and donate to the deaf people which is one of its charity site. If they r so good, there wouldn't be dead/sick people in City harvest as well. Why doesn't tat happen ? Why doesn't there any scientific studies tat show "miracles" ? If there is really "miracle healing, where real physical change can be detected such as bone suddenly sprang up in size or muscle suddenly becoming stronger, fracture suddenly vanishes or cancer tumors really dissappeared then surely medically speaking it can be recorded. However these people never do these tests and the real scientist never bother asking. Trust me anyone who make a scientific test and recorded properly these phenomenon, if they r true, can become as famous as einstein if they found the route to permanent cure of disabilities and win a nobel price for proving god exists. Why do u think all these never happen ?
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Can you imagine if this kind of pastor starts a hospice or a home for handicapped, he will have no patients?
'cos anyone who goes in and believes in his miracle will be discharged within 3 days.
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nah.. they don't need 3 days. 3 minutes enough liao
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Aiyah .. wait they give excuse say Jesus also needed 3 days to raise Lazarus then how? -
but... but.. but..................
David copperfield can do his magic in 3 minutes mah -
i attend city harvest church, and no, i am not brainwashed. anti-chc sentiments are quite high here, but i respect both sides. chc ain't perfect and some policies, i don't agree with nor have any interests to participate.
anyways, that guy is benny hinn, its church policy to promote faith healing and have been publishing articles and speeches about faith healing. he is a outspoken faith healer that even paster kong describes as a very flashy person.
during the service, some wheelbound dude suddenly jumped up before the servcie started and ran around claiming to be healed. but ive seen my share of "faith" healing too. my temp replacement cell group leader said he was healed of his bad cold, but later on, i think it came back or something. this would be more of "believing" without realising the problem persists.
after that, the pastors have been praying for healing ever since. -
apparently, chc doesn't buy into that. they are more about expanding the church and seems to accept "salvation by works" indirectly.Originally posted by LazerLordz:First of all, my personal opinion of City Harvest is very likely to start a flame war.Now I am a Methodist and I believe that faith and belief , though cornerstones of the Christian faith, they need to be tempered by love, humility and empathy for others, and that includes not exploiting the suffering of others and doing such "megastar" deeds to attract crowds.
Live a good life and be answerable to your conscience and God.That's all that is needed.Building a grand church does not guarantee you a place in Heaven or a good afterlife.We are all equal before God.
they are starting a new building fund too, to build a second church to accomodate more people. -
during the service, some wheelbound dude suddenly jumped up before the servcie started and ran around claiming to be healed. but ive seen my share of "faith" healing too. my temp replacement cell group leader said he was healed of his bad cold, but later on, i think it came back or something. this would be more of "believing" without realising the problem persists.
If christainity can cure cold, then there wouldn't be anything called black death and worse still, it wouldn't have occur in a christian region, -
I am a freethinker but i tend to keep my views to myself as i know it will spark a very big arguement....
Views-
-All Gods are either a family or they are only 1-My view of God
-If God treated all His children equally and there is no such thing as recarnation...why are some ppl born rich/poor,bad/good,perfect/disfigured?
-Christians must pay a monthly sum of their salary to show their loyalty to God..What about those ppl who can't pay? Are they disloyal to God?
I belive that all this monthly donations are all human-made up.
One such case would be Father Joseph Kang,embelzzed funds from the chruch...how much do we know is actually given to God?
-I also belive that God did not create of such donating partly amount of salary...I have read the bible...I remember that God wanted His children to be loyal to Him but nothing about donating about Him...
I remember the story of a rich man and a poor lady...The man gave alot of money but he was only trying to show that he was loyal to God whereas the lady only gave 2 cents of what she had left...
So I was thinking...I hope the Christians can clear my question about giving money to the chruches...Do u all have to give a certain percentage amount of ur salary or is it by your choice?
Cheers -
as long we don't end up screwing each other personally, its alright to spark debates. if things are heading that way.. lol.Originally posted by StarPuppy:I am a freethinker but i tend to keep my views to myself as i know it will spark a very big arguement....
Views-
-All Gods are either a family or they are only 1-My view of God
-If God treated all His children equally and there is no such thing as recarnation...why are some ppl born rich/poor,bad/good,perfect/disfigured?
-Christians must pay a monthly sum of their salary to show their loyalty to God..What about those ppl who can't pay? Are they disloyal to God?
I belive that all this monthly donations are all human-made up.
One such case would be Father Joseph Kang,embelzzed funds from the chruch...how much do we know is actually given to God?
-I also belive that God did not create of such donating partly amount of salary...I have read the bible...I remember that God wanted His children to be loyal to Him but nothing about donating about Him...
I remember the story of a rich man and a poor lady...The man gave alot of money but he was only trying to show that he was loyal to God whereas the lady only gave 2 cents of what she had left...
So I was thinking...I hope the Christians can clear my question about giving money to the chruches...Do u all have to give a certain percentage amount of ur salary or is it by your choice? Cheers
the system of tithing says a person gives 10% of his earnings to the house of God. so its not the amount but the thought that counts. in fact, it says earnings, it might not even be the form of money.. but thats the common currency of trade nowadays.
as long its 10%, its counted and be blessed. the rich man may give alot, but if that is a small sum of his immerse wealth den its only a hypocritical gesture of hot air. the fact the story uses a women to illustrate the poor is weird. there isn't any connection between genders nor rich nor poor.
the tithing part was stated in the bible, and was a tradition to most churches. but there are free churches that does not embrace tilthing as a neccessity.
in chc, they teach tilthings are the only things a person can challenge God with. if one should not be blessed or inherit misfortunes, i supposed we know how true God's words are. of course, we could argue that the person's sins have caught up with him, etc etc.
i give as a personal choice, if i don't want to, noone can take a single cent from me. not even the pastor can move my stance. but others may be weaker in their stance and usually they bow down to peer pressure and repeated speeches on the importance of tilthing.
since i am attending chc, ill speak from chc context. chc seems to be very focused on money and the importance of financial wealth and political position to spread the word of God or church/christian influence. -
that is why my friends want me to go for chc talks,i will never go because i belive a pastor has no right to preach if he is the one asking for money..i will only listen to one who speaks freely and doesn't ask devotees to give money at all..only if their choiceOriginally posted by Ito_^:as long we don't end up screwing each other personally, its alright to spark debates. if things are heading that way.. lol.
the system of tithing says a person gives 10% of his earnings to the house of God. so its not the amount but the thought that counts. in fact, it says earnings, it might not even be the form of money.. but thats the common currency of trade nowadays.
as long its 10%, its counted and be blessed. the rich man may give alot, but if that is a small sum of his immerse wealth den its only a hypocritical gesture of hot air. the fact the story uses a women to illustrate the poor is weird. there isn't any connection between genders nor rich nor poor.
the tithing part was stated in the bible, and was a tradition to most churches. but there are free churches that does not embrace tilthing as a neccessity.
in chc, they teach tilthings are the only things a person can challenge God with. if one should not be blessed or inherit misfortunes, i supposed we know how true God's words are. of course, we could argue that the person's sins have caught up with him, etc etc.
i give as a personal choice, if i don't want to, noone can take a single cent from me. not even the pastor can move my stance. but others may be weaker in their stance and usually they bow down to peer pressure and repeated speeches on the importance of tilthing.
since i am attending chc, ill speak from chc context. chc seems to be very focused on money and the importance of financial wealth and political position to spread the word of God or church/christian influence. -
thats why they are called miracles.Originally posted by stupidissmart:If christainity can cure cold, then there wouldn't be anything called black death and worse still, it wouldn't have occur in a christian region, aka unable to be recreated emparically and occurance rare as a gay mouse.
faith healing, like the name said, requires faith in the person to even have the chance of receiving miracle. the question now would be why wouldn't God just give the miracles to all, instead of watching people die.
i've never been healed by faith though, so don't ask me the validity and experience. ive seen people getting healed in those services, but i do not know them personally, nor have any medical evidence so i can't accept them as such.
for us, not so Godly folks, panadol would be the better cure. -
the system of tithing says a person gives 10% of his earnings to the house of God. so its not the amount but the thought that counts. in fact, it says earnings, it might not even be the form of money.. but thats the common currency of trade nowadays.
Trust me, within the book where they tell u to tilth 10%, they also tell u of a lot of funny laws which r conveniently forgotten now.Since i am attending chc, ill speak from chc context. chc seems to be very focused on money and the importance of financial wealth and political position to spread the word of God or church/christian influence.
Actually I am quite surprise u r from chc
Anyway why does "fiancial health" important to spreading the word ? Shouldn't father kong lead by example and donate his condo or cars first ?thats why they are called miracles. aka unable to be recreated emparically and occurance rare as a gay mouse
If a pastor can ask a wheelchair bond person to come up to stage and instantly cure him, it seems to be prepared, or otherwise up to tis pastor will and fancy to cure the person to me...
ANyway, I am gonna be busy these few days and u r not gonna catch me much in here... tata -
http://skepdic.com/placebo.htmlOriginally posted by Ito_^:i attend city harvest church, and no, i am not brainwashed. anti-chc sentiments are quite high here, but i respect both sides. chc ain't perfect and some policies, i don't agree with nor have any interests to participate.
anyways, that guy is benny hinn, its church policy to promote faith healing and have been publishing articles and speeches about faith healing. he is a outspoken faith healer that even paster kong describes as a very flashy person.
during the service, some wheelbound dude suddenly jumped up before the servcie started and ran around claiming to be healed. but ive seen my share of "faith" healing too. my temp replacement cell group leader said he was healed of his bad cold, but later on, i think it came back or something. this would be more of "believing" without realising the problem persists.
after that, the pastors have been praying for healing ever since.
Outside of the Church, it is known as the placebo effect.
The mind do works wonder. Something the early Christians discovered.
However, believing solely on "faith" healing can be detrimental. There's only so much your mind can work for your body. Modern medicine should still be used as the primary cure. "Mind" cure should be seen only as a supplementary cure. Not the other way round. -
city harvest??alot of christians think of it as a cult.the way they conduct their service and everything.anyway most people there are influenced by friends and not of their own free will which is not wad the bible says.the bible says to believe in god,u must do it out of your own will and not others.
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Trust me, within the book where they tell u to tilth 10%, they also tell u of a lot of funny laws which r conveniently forgotten now.
True, then its either to the will of God, or to the Church. The Catholics remained faithful to their traditions after so long. So either its divine, or its human. Whichever the case, they do exists and biblical references can be made.
How relevant is that, maybe I'll tell you in 50 years time after I die.]Actually I am quite surprise u r from chc
I supposed being his is as good as being donated to the Church, according to him, his vists to other countries have been welcomed like a major star with the rich and powerful (mostly indonesian chinese) flocking over him like doves. Anyway why does "fiancial health" important to spreading the word ? Shouldn't father kong lead by example and donate his condo or cars first ?
Yeah, for the surprised part, I get that alot. I remember when I first told my friends I was attending Church, they goes WTF!! and refused to believe. In fact some of them them still believes I have funny motives in my conversion.. I wouldn't be surprised if someone calls me the anti-Christ. =.=
Personally, I do not consider myself a convert yet. I am trying to understand, an initiate bah?If a pastor can ask a wheelchair bond person to come up to stage and instantly cure him, it seems to be prepared, or otherwise up to tis pastor will and fancy to cure the person to me...
No, the logic is, as crudely as possible, the power of God goes through the healer at His own whim. If you have the pressence of God with you, even you can heal. And even then, you cannot control whether this person can be healed or not. The Holy Whim of God.
The faith healer in this case, is a charismatic person whom God likes to linger about. Otherwise, he is no different from a roadside begger. The concept of humility applies here, for a servant of God to understand his blessings and charisma are only and only through the pressence of God and not theirs.
The rest of those fireworks and display are solely personal preference, and see if God happy or not.
And.. cya den. -
Thats the difference between miracles and so-called "faith healing". Basically miracles are impossibilities made real, or thats how the meaning is.Originally posted by earthlings73:http://skepdic.com/placebo.html
Outside of the Church, it is known as the placebo effect.
The mind do works wonder. Something the early Christians discovered.
However, believing solely on "faith" healing can be detrimental. There's only so much your mind can work for your body. Modern medicine should still be used as the primary cure. "Mind" cure should be seen only as a supplementary cure. Not the other way round. -
Not all, and most.. I dunnoe, its not like I know all of them.Originally posted by stellazio:city harvest??alot of christians think of it as a cult.the way they conduct their service and everything.anyway most people there are influenced by friends and not of their own free will which is not wad the bible says.the bible says to believe in god,u must do it out of your own will and not others. But its not surprising.. I got a friend.. which can be summarized in these words. "For friends she came, for friends she left, and for friends she returned."
But you can also argue that these "friends" were sent by God and thus you received salvation through them. But when you see them leaving because of friends, you can see how practical is that argument. -
oh.. u mean like curing a devouted AIDS christians with "miracle" healing?Originally posted by Ito_^:Thats the difference between miracles and so-called "faith healing". Basically miracles are impossibilities made real, or thats how the meaning is. -
No, the logic is, as crudely as possible, the power of God goes through the healer at His own whim. If you have the pressence of God with you, even you can heal. And even then, you cannot control whether this person can be healed or not. The Holy Whim of God.
Frankly, in the bible other jesus, is there anybody who can heal ? Actually I really don't know about tis so I am asking about it now. Does any of the 12 disciples know how to heal ? Does mother teresa know how to heal ? In fact mother mary doesn't know how to heal if I am nto wrong as well. Why doesn't the pope, or any pope know how to heal ? Why doesn't very pious people such as church leaders from other denomination don't know how to heal as well ? It just sounds to me as strange since holy people who had given out much more in their lives can't have tis gift while surprisingly strange people who doesn't seem to be tat pious do. Anyway where in the bible do u find claims tat power of god goes through healer etc etc etc ? I thought there is a statement in the bible tat says tat don't ask for any signs as there will be none or something...
The faith healer in this case, is a charismatic person whom God likes to linger about. Otherwise, he is no different from a roadside begger. The concept of humility applies here, for a servant of God to understand his blessings and charisma are only and only through the pressence of God and not theirs.
Anyway if u r right about the charismatic stuff, then maybe jesus isn't the son of god but simply a charismatic person himself....Basically miracles are impossibilities made real, or thats how the meaning is.
Lets put it tis way, the faith healing u see in CHC probably does not belong to the "miracle" kind. As said before, if it is real, tat torn muscles bcome healed in second or cancer that were medically diagnose to be true dissappeared, then it is miracle. If tat person, actually capable of standing but just lack the courgae or confident to try really stand during the mass, then it is not a miracle. How many times have u seen real miracles which u r really in a good position to testify it to be true ? -
very true.. isnt miracles to be rare cos it is hard to be seen in life..Originally posted by stupidissmart:Lets put it tis way, the faith healing u see in CHC probably does not belong to the "miracle" kind. As said before, if it is real, tat torn muscles bcome healed in second or cancer that were medically diagnose to be true dissappeared, then it is miracle. If tat person, actually capable of standing but just lack the courgae or confident to try really stand during the mass, then it is not a miracle. How many times have u seen real miracles which u r really in a good position to testify it to be true ?
i had been taken to 2 services and 1 outing by city harvest.. my childhood fren got "brainwashed", but im not.. cos i had been a free-thinker.. i can still logically think.. that's y i was really angry when i saw what the pastor did during that service i saw regardin miracle.. sorry if i offend any christians here.. -
its ok.u are not offending me.in fact i too am against city harvest.go to a proper church attend the service.if u feel anything towards god den good,but if u dun den also good.carry on being a free tinker and if ppl ask u to go churches next time u can decline becucz u haf been to one on ur own free will but it just did not happen for u.
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The OT prophets also knew how to heal. The Bible records that Elijah, Elisha, Peter, and Paul raised the dead, as well as Jesus Christ (http://www.believers.org/believe/bel165.htm) Raising the dead is the most extreme form of healing, in my view.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Frankly, in the bible other jesus, is there anybody who can heal ? Actually I really don't know about tis so I am asking about it now. Does any of the 12 disciples know how to heal ?
As for normal healing powers of the disciple,
Luke 9:1-2 - Then Jesus called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases, and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal.
For 70 others japalang (I dunno who are they).
Luke 10:8-9 - Whenever you enter a town and its people welcome you, eat what is set before you; cure the sick who are there, and say to them, “The kingdom of God has come near to you.”
Paul (Acts 14:8-10), Barnabas (15:12), Philip(8:7), and Stephen (6:
were also given the gift of healing.
Paul himself had the gift of healing but he left his friend Trophimus sick at Miletus. In I Timothy 5:23, Paul apparently could not heal Timothy's stomach problem, except advising Timothy to take some medicinal wine. These incidents clearly indicate that healing was not manipulated as the apostles willed, but it was done according the will of God.