Old testament
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How abt the Saints?
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Nope. You don't worship angels.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Just a question though, if god have many angels, does tis make it similar to the taoist idea of heaven where there r many many different deities and a ruler among them (jade emperor)
And unlike the chinese Pan Ku, God does not die after creation. -
Nope. You don't worship angels.
Obviously there r much difference between the chinese mythology and the christian one. The point I am trying to say is if there r angels with god, tat doesn't make him an individual but rather, an organisation or something. And such organisation is not seldom seen in other religion such as hindu or certain form of taoism
And unlike the chinese Pan Ku, God does not die after creation.
about the dead saints, do they go to heaven or stay in limbo now ? -
I think the important point is to see the sovereignity of God - that only He is in control. Of everything, unlike we have God of Wealth, Deity of Marriage etc ..
I think saints are defined differently by Protestants. Read "Chapter XVII. Of the Perseverance of the Saints" in the Westminister Confession of Faith. -
Eh? But just because the saints are with God, that doesn't make them Gods.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Obviously there r much difference between the chinese mythology and the christian one. The point I am trying to say is if there r angels with god, tat doesn't make him an individual but rather, an organisation or something. And such organisation is not seldom seen in other religion such as hindu or certain form of taoism
about the dead saints, do they go to heaven or stay in limbo now ?
They go to heaven. -
I dont see much difference between Chinese Gods or Christian Saints tho
I watched the Discovery Channel program on the Vatican
They said that once the nominees are confirmed for beatification, they are called the Blessed and any relic, be it their bone or belongings, are kept and in jewel cases and regarded as holy.
They then can be prayed to, and you know saints works in someways like the Chinese Gods, where they have specific areas to tend to, although in Taoism and chinese folklore there is no single mighty god like the Christian definition of God. -
I think the important point is to see the sovereignity of God - that only He is in control. Of everything, unlike we have God of Wealth, Deity of Marriage etc ..
But then again, god is not alone, he consists of holy spirits as well.
Who knows maybe a holy ghost is involve in rain making while another is thunder making. I don't think the bible says tat god is the one tat control the weather... he seems to be the one tat create them only.... Angels seems to be of a lower hierachy than god but they do go along helping the organisation. They can be assigned tasks, maybe like controlling the rain etc 
Anyway tis is just adding fairy tales to a fairy taleEh? But just because the saints are with God, that doesn't make them Gods
Just a question... do anyone ever pray to the saints ? -
Exactly, only that it was impossible even 20 centuries ago....that same sentiment was expressed by another person then:Originally posted by stupidissmart:OT is totally impossible to follow in today's society
"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." [Rom 3:20]
People have this misconception that God gave the OT laws so that people can follow and become holy. Actually, quite the opposite. God gave the OT laws not so that we will become holy, but that we will be condemned by it.
Man becomes convicted by sin, a consciousness of sin that could have have arisen if not for the fact that they have the law. As you said, reading the law and examining their lives, we come to the same conclusion as the writer of Romans, 'no one will be declared righteous....by observing the law'.
The OT laws are actually a huge 'No through road' sign to say that observing a set of commandments will not lead to salvation.It sets the background for Christ, who is presented as an alternative way:
"But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." [Rom3:21-22]
So we should not be surprised to find the OT laws difficult or impossible to follow. They are meant to be. -
You are right....the Bible tells us time and again that we have to follow all the laws...in fact, in Matt 5, Jesus went on to add on to the laws of Moses.Originally posted by stupidissmart:The laws which I have stated r explicitly mentioned by God himself to tell to the people. They r not laws added by the jews. From Deuteronomy 1-12, they r telling people the importance of the laws and from DT 13 onwards they r telling wat laws have to be followed, from moses mouth it was "laws", "decree" "commands" and he say it came from "God"/"Lord". Jesus says the law has to be followed, and the things listed in deuteronomy r part of the old laws. They were really followed and they were supposedly from god. Now u r forsaking it and claim they r jewish laws. Why don't u read the whole deuteronomy and tell me again why do u think these laws were not laws or why these laws were only made by jewish for jewish, not made by god for its people.
Quite amusing, actually. The pharisees prided themselves of following and observing all the laws of Moses very strictly and they have additional rules as well, so-called 'traditions of the elders'. It was said that if only two person gets to heaven, on eof them will be a pharisee. But here Jesus is saying that the laws of Moses, impossibly difficult as they are, aren't enough...
There is a pattern to this passage...'You have heard that it was said....but I tell you....' [Matt 5:21-44] So the Pharisees thought they were ok...they never murdered anyone, but Jesus said an insult is the same as murder. They thought they never committed adultery, but Jesus said if they lusted after a woman, it is the same thing. Pretty soon it becomes clear that by Jesus' standards, we are all murderers and have committed adultery at one time or another.
You are also right in quoting Jesus' statement that he came to fulfill the law, not destroy it. He certainly added to it and made it even more difficult. As mentioned in my earlier post, the demand that we follow all the laws of Moses, made even more difficult by the NT interpretations by Jesus, all serves to make clear to us that it is impossible to do it.
But God tells us to obey all the laws knowing that it cannot be done? Exactly...that is the point of the laws. So that we come to realize that it is impossible to find salvation by human effort, by relying on observance of the law.
"All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law. Clearly no one is justified before God by the law...."
[Gal 3:10-11a].
I expect some further questions but I will leave that to another time. -
Frankly I don't really understand wat u r driving at... I try to answer if possible
"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." [Rom 3:20]
However no where in tis line tat suggest men do not have to follow the OT isn't it ? They still have to be followed strictly isn't it ? Tis is just an a justification for following OT, not a reason NOT to follow OT. In fact it tells us to follow more strictly so we know wat is "sin".People have this misconception that God gave the OT laws so that people can follow and become holy. Actually, quite the opposite. God gave the OT laws not so that we will become holy, but that we will be condemned by it.
And breaking it is a sign we r obedient to god and therefore holy ? It doesn't make sense and it certainly protray him as a liar isn't it ? He say tat those who do not follow the laws will suffer unbearable consequences. Now u say he doesn't really meant tat ? He say one thing and meant the other ? In fact if we break the law, it meant nothing ? It certainly doesn't make sense if we compared with the words of Laws from MosesMan becomes convicted by sin, a consciousness of sin that could have have arisen if not for the fact that they have the law. As you said, reading the law and examining their lives, we come to the same conclusion as the writer of Romans, 'no one will be declared righteous....by observing the law'.
Before moses, they already have laws. If they want people to be conscious of sins, they should implement the right laws isn't it ? Why implement lousy and strict laws on everything ? U mean having period is unclean making us conscious of sin ? U mean stiriking the ears of a slave so they belong to us forevr is making us conscious of sin ? It is not ! It is on things tat is not even sinful or wrong to begin with ! It doesn't add conscious to our sin, it made us feel the whole system of sin is silly !The OT laws are actually a huge 'No through road' sign to say that observing a set of commandments will not lead to salvation.It sets the background for Christ, who is presented as an alternative way:
Wat do u mean ? U mean the laws is there for us to break them ? U mean folowing the laws will lead us to disaster ? Then why does god give us the laws and ask people to follow them ? Setting a background for christ ? By sacrificing the thousands of people who follow the old laws faithfully ? They r being misled and deceived by god for saying something and doesn't mean it isn't it ?So we should not be surprised to find the OT laws difficult or impossible to follow. They are meant to be.
The OT laws r meant to be followed. In the passage it tells of the consequences of not following the laws, such as hell etc. Why is it not meant to be followed ?But God tells us to obey all the laws knowing that it cannot be done? Exactly...that is the point of the laws. So that we come to realize that it is impossible to find salvation by human effort, by relying on observance of the law.
The pharisee can follow the OT laws isn't it ? It can be done. So in the end he want us to do watever we want then repent later and hope divine help is around ? So it is really true a christian hitler can go to heaven."All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law. Clearly no one is justified before God by the law...."
Tis again illustrate tat we have to follow the OT laws, even though it is ridiculous and make lives miserable. -
Frankly I don't really understand wat u r driving at
Sorry I cannot explain it clearer than what I have siad..perhaps you might want to read it again
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Perhaps u should read my reply instead to see if there is anything wrong with my understanding of your reply first. U forget to read "I will try to reply if possible" on the second part of your quoted sentence and frankly, if I get your point right, my response to it is correct.
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Ok..I did not intend to respond because I am not interested to engage you in an apologetic debate. You have said that your purpose is not to find out what Christians believe in but rather your purpose is to attack the bible account 'so others will not believe'. I do not see the need to defend the Scriptures but for the sake of those who sincerely want to know these issues, I will respond to your comments.
no where in tis line tat suggest men do not have to follow the OT isn't it ? They still have to be followed strictly isn't it ? Tis is just an a justification for following OT, not a reason NOT to follow OT.
The bible says that there are 2 means to salvation: one by following the laws strictly and the other by Christ, through the grace of God. The first way is to follow every single law of God, which is impossible for man to follow. The laws of God reflect the holy nature of God, so if men so desire to seek justification through the law, he has to obey each and every single one of them. That is not possible. So the effect of the law is to instill guilt and lead to a consciousness of sin. If you do not believe you have sinned, you won't realize that you have fallen short of the standard required and hence you will not see the need to seek an alternative means of salvation.
So the first step to salvation is to be aware of all these laws and as one tries to obey them, it becomes clear that it is impossible and so we all stand condemned by the law.It doesn't make sense and it certainly protray him as a liar isn't it ? He say tat those who do not follow the laws will suffer unbearable consequences. Now u say he doesn't really meant tat ?
I did not say that...read carefully before you comment. Any man who tries to seek justification by following the law will discover that he is not able to and so will suffer the consequences of sin. Therefore, the effect of the law is to tell us that we are all condemned. No one is justified by the law...that is the purpose and effect of the law...it condemns us.
Give you an analogy. Suppose you are an incurable cannabis addict. In Amsterdam where there is no law against cannabis, you are not guilty of a crime and you may not see that it is a problem. If you come to Singapore where there is a law against it, that is a crime. To avoid being a criminal in Singapore, you must not smoke cannabis. But you soon realize that it is impossible for you, because you are a hopeless addict. To obey our drug law, you must refrain from cannabis, but you find it impossible. The only alternative, the only way not to be convicted under Singapore's laws then is to submit to drug rehab treatment. The effect of the law therefore is to lead you to undergo rehab, unless you can stop the addiction by yourself, which you cannot.
The purpose of the Mosaic law is therefore to bring Man to the place where he realizes that he has fallen short of the standard required by God. The laws are so stringent that it is clear no man can meet its requirements. Therefore, the law does not find anyone justified.If they want people to be conscious of sins, they should implement the right laws isn't it ? Why implement lousy and strict laws on everything ?
You are trying to take the place of God and decide what should be sinful and what should not be. If you accept that God is holy and man is far from holy, you will realize how ridiculous it will be if Man can understand the reason for God's laws. God is the law giver, not us. The law is supposed to reflect God's nature, not our own. It will be surprising if sinful Man can agree with the laws of a holy God.
You can disagree with the laws...it's your prerogative. But just because many people think homosexuality should not be a crime, it remains a criminal offence currently and one can be punished if he is convicted.Setting a background for christ ? By sacrificing the thousands of people who follow the old laws faithfully ? They r being misled and deceived by god for saying something and doesn't mean it isn't it ?
As I have explained above, in view of our sinful nature, we will find it impossible to achieve justification through the law. That leaves us with only one alternative means of justification. The central doctrine of Christianity is about the substitutionary justification provided by Christ.
Because Christ is fully God and fully Man; unlike Man, he is holy and yet he is also the perfect representation of Man. The punishment of sin, which is the failure to obey the law, is death. By the death of Christ, he who is without sin takes on the punishment of sin on Man's behalf. So whilst we have all inherited the sinful nature through Adam, every man since Adam may become justified through the death of Christ, who never sinned. That's what it means when the Bible says,
"Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." [Rom5:18-19]
You must have heard the analogy of this idea of substitutionary redemption. A criminal is sentenced to a fine for a crime he committed. The judge who did not crime had to pass the sentence out of justice but out of mercy, he offered to pay the fine for the criminal. By simply accepting the judge's offer, the criminal becomes justified. His debt is paid and he goes free.
For this to work, the person making the substitution must be a representative of the one who sinned. So Jesus has to be fully Man in order to take the punishment due to Man and yet has to be fully God so that he is not himself under the penalty of sin. Thus it says in the bible:
"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people." [Heb 2:17]
Those who had the laws of moses before the birth of Christ were told to bring a sin sacrifice at regular intervals:
"Once a year Aaron shall make atonement on its horns. This annual atonement must be made with the blood of the atoning sin offering for the generations to come. It is most holy to the LORD." [Ex30:10]
That sacrifice of lamb is not by itself efficacious as atonement for sin. It is accepted as a foretaste of Jesus, who is called the lamb of God:
"The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" [Jn1:29]
By his death, Jesus became the sacrifical lamb that replaced the sacrificial system set up by the Mosaic Law. The people before Christ had the law, they recognized their sins under the law and as provided by the law, they offered animal sacrifices. This was accepted as atonement because God, who is not limited by time, has provided the perfect sacrifice in the form of Christ, coming centuries after Moses. So this is what the bible means when it says,
"God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." [Rom 3:25-26]
Although the animal sacrifices were not efficacious in taking away sins, God accepted them all the same, in essence leaving 'the sins committed beforehand unpunished'. He accepted the sacrifice of Christ subsequently for the sins of past years:The pharisee can follow the OT laws isn't it ? It can be done. So in the end he want us to do watever we want then repent later and hope divine help is around ? So it is really true a christian hitler can go to heaven.
No, the Pharisees tried but certainly no man can follow the law, especially when Jesus further added to its demands, as I have mentioned previously. Justification has got nothing to do with how good we lead our lives, because no matter how good we try, we will still fall short of God's standard. And just in an exam, it does not matter whether you fail by a mark or 30 marks...you fail.
Justification in Christianity is by accepting the offer of salvation through Christ. It is not something we deserve or have achieved. That's what it means by grace...something we do not deserve. You get a prize if you work hard and are rewarded for your efforts. You receive grace when you don't deserve it but yet receive it nonetheless. Exactly, Hitler can go to heaven if he repents and accepts Christ. Christianity is not about people who get to heaven because they are good. It's about undeserving people who are accepted by God merely because they claim the offer of salvation by Christ.
As to your question, "Can we do whatever we want?" That is not a new question...the Roman Christians asked the same question. This is the reply of the author of the Letter to the Romans:
" What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life." [Rom 6:1-4]
The question is analogous to the criminal who, having received pardon from the judge, asking if he can therefore continue to steal knowing that the judge will always pay the fine. The bible is saying that to claim the salvation of Christ is to completely reject sin and strive to live according to God's standards in the Bible. Of course we will fail to obey all the laws from time to time, but there is no longer any condemnation 'for those who are in Christ Jesus' [Rom 8:1]. The Christian aspires to live in a manner that befits his calling but it is no longer for the purpose of seeking justification. It is striving towards an ideal, not struggling for salvation. -
The bible says that there are 2 means to salvation: one by following the laws strictly and the other by Christ, through the grace of God. The first way is to follow every single law of God, which is impossible for man to follow. The laws of God reflect the holy nature of God, so if men so desire to seek justification through the law, he has to obey each and every single one of them. That is not possible. So the effect of the law is to instill guilt and lead to a consciousness of sin. If you do not believe you have sinned, you won't realize that you have fallen short of the standard required and hence you will not see the need to seek an alternative means of salvation.
Then to know more about sins, we should follow the OT as closely as possible, not to totally throw them away isn't it ? HAve u actually try to follow the OT at all in the first place ? U should probably try as hard as possible to follow these laws until u give up isn't it ? Why just don't follow the Ot and say we do nto follow them ? I said before, u r giving justification to follow the OT, u r not giving justification not to follow them. U r going back to your old points again.
So the first step to salvation is to be aware of all these laws and as one tries to obey them, it becomes clear that it is impossible and so we all stand condemned by the law.
And wat is the result ? We should not follow any laws then isn't it ? We r gonna break the las and ask for divine intervention in the end so no matter wat we so now, it is pointless. We have already broken so many different laws in the OT isn't it ? SInce we r gonna break so many laws, might as well break all the laws such as murdering, killing, being homo, commit adultery, stealing etc since the OT laws r as important as any biblical laws.I did not say that...read carefully before you comment. Any man who tries to seek justification by following the law will discover that he is not able to and so will suffer the consequences of sin. Therefore, the effect of the law is to tell us that we are all condemned. No one is justified by the law...that is the purpose and effect of the law...it condemns us.
First, u do not show any biblical account on your belief. Second, I can easily show u the many possible forms of punishment inthe bible if anyone break the OT law. So if you r right tat only idiot will follow the OT laws and surely fail, and he do not suffer the punishment tat god had promised to his believers, then he is lying. He lied tat people who do not follow the laws will not suffer.Give you an analogy. Suppose you are an incurable cannabis addict. In Amsterdam where there is no law against cannabis, you are not guilty of a crime and you may not see that it is a problem. If you come to Singapore where there is a law against it, that is a crime. To avoid being a criminal in Singapore, you must not smoke cannabis. But you soon realize that it is impossible for you, because you are a hopeless addict. To obey our drug law, you must refrain from cannabis, but you find it impossible. The only alternative, the only way not to be convicted under Singapore's laws then is to submit to drug rehab treatment. The effect of the law therefore is to lead you to undergo rehab, unless you can stop the addiction by yourself, which you cannot.
However tat has really nothing connected to tis situation isn't it ? If u r a drug addict and u still wnna go to singapore, then u deserve it isn't it since u purposely made tat choice of going there ? U have a choice in tis, unlike being human there is no choice. If u want an analogy, I can give u a better one. ONce upon a time there was a cruel emperor. He devised many rules to torture his people. He say the rule r forever and will never change. These rules r impossible to fulfil, such as asking the people to walk ito the water and if they come out wet, they get beated. Then one day he become more crazy and say tat every everybody do not need to follow the rules in the country even though the laws r still there. He is already lying about the fact tat the rules r forever. Furthermore he is not fair to the people who had lived under the old rules where they get punished. There is absolutely no rules for the people and they can break every single rule they want as long as they r still a citizen in the country. SO we can expect the people to go around robbing and stealing things without any fear of punishment and the people live become much worseThe purpose of the Mosaic law is therefore to bring Man to the place where he realizes that he has fallen short of the standard required by God. The laws are so stringent that it is clear no man can meet its requirements. Therefore, the law does not find anyone justified.
And in tat case men should break all laws since they can't keep majority of the laws. BTW some laws r not harsh, they r ridiculous and silly. They r meaningless to perhaps most people here. These laws r killing a pigeon and releasing another after a woman have their periods and laws like taking the wives and children of your slave as your own.You are trying to take the place of God and decide what should be sinful and what should not be. If you accept that God is holy and man is far from holy, you will realize how ridiculous it will be if Man can understand the reason for God's laws. God is the law giver, not us. The law is supposed to reflect God's nature, not our own. It will be surprising if sinful Man can agree with the laws of a holy God.
WHy don't u tell me why does women having period is unclean ? If it is far holier than men, then he wouldn't made such silly laws since he is the one tat invented mensus in the first place. There r probably many laws there tat is ridiculous, impossible and unfair and u probably can't answer wat sense does it made. If u ask me, tis can conclude the god is not as holy as u believe.You can disagree with the laws...it's your prerogative. But just because many people think homosexuality should not be a crime, it remains a criminal offence currently and one can be punished if he is convicted.
Then why don't u ask your sister and mother to practise the killing and releasing pigeons in the sky to remove their uncleaniness during their period. It is the old laws isn't it ? Why should u eat pork, it is prohibited in the OT as well. God had said these laws out too. U agree with the laws, then u should follow them right ? Why aren't u following the laws from the very holy god ? I tell u franky, these laws r silly and ridiculous, not harsh. Tat is why most people do not follow them now. If u think these laws r ridiculous, then u should believe god is not as holy as one thinks. If u think these laws r fair, then u should practise all the OT in our lives now. It is fair, it is sensible and it came from a holy god so it should be followed. U should follow it as closely as possible isn't it ? U r not god, why judge these laws youself and not follow them ? U must follow them and not to dismiss them if u think they r so precious and holy. They r probably for your own good too if your god is so holy. SO follow the OT !As I have explained above, in view of our sinful nature, we will find it impossible to achieve justification through the law. That leaves us with only one alternative means of justification. The central doctrine of Christianity is about the substitutionary justification provided by Christ.
Then in short, why need christ ? We just need lambs isn't it ? We can just sacrifice as much lambs as we need and we will be sinless. Don't u find it silly, he made all the laws, he say they r unchanging, he say people who do not follow will suffer gravely. Then u say the laws r actually not to be followed and then u say if u sacrifice a lamb, your sin will be erased off and jesus is the same as lambs. Isn't tat contradicting each other ? Isn't tat lying when god says tat the people will suffer gravely when they break the laws ?You must have heard the analogy of this idea of substitutionary redemption. A criminal is sentenced to a fine for a crime he committed. The judge who did not crime had to pass the sentence out of justice but out of mercy, he offered to pay the fine for the criminal. By simply accepting the judge's offer, the criminal becomes justified. His debt is paid and he goes free.
If there is a judge who keeps paying for all criminals, then the whole world will be a more chaotic place and everybody will just keep breaking the laws as and when they want to. Wat is law and order then ?No, the Pharisees tried but certainly no man can follow the law, especially when Jesus further added to its demands, as I have mentioned previously. Justification has got nothing to do with how good we lead our lives, because no matter how good we try, we will still fall short of God's standard. And just in an exam, it does not matter whether you fail by a mark or 30 marks...you fail.
Then surely something is wrong with the system isn't it ? It says tat all people will be punished heavily if they fail and then they purposely make sure everyone fails. Might as well just punish men straight from the start. Since everyone fails, and whether they fail by 30 marks or 5 marks, then might as well fail miserably by getting zero and start to masacre everybody now. In fact, why take the test ? Nobody cares about the result of the test.The question is analogous to the criminal who, having received pardon from the judge, asking if he can therefore continue to steal knowing that the judge will always pay the fine. The bible is saying that to claim the salvation of Christ is to completely reject sin and strive to live according to God's standards in the Bible. Of course we will fail to obey all the laws from time to time, but there is no longer any condemnation 'for those who are in Christ Jesus' [Rom 8:1]. The Christian aspires to live in a manner that befits his calling but it is no longer for the purpose of seeking justification. It is striving towards an ideal, not struggling for salvation.
Aren't u intentionally sinning if u eat pork ? Aren't u intentionally sinning when u don't release pigeons after your period ? U r intentionally sinning according to god's standard when u don't follow the OT isn't it ? U r not striving "ideal" when u do not follow the OT isn't it ? SO the case is either follow all the laws or break all the laws since it can't be helped. U r suggesting we do not follow all the laws isn't it ? -
The reason stupidissmart that we need Christ is because He became the perfect sacrifice once and for all for us. Jesus came so that we might have GRACE because as you have debated for so long, we cannot fulfill the law and so God needed a way to give us salvation through a perfect sacrifice, through the first Adam, sin came into the world, through Jeus who was the second adam, sins stronghold was destroyed and we have life everlasting.
Did you know that in the OT you were only cleansed for the time you remained in the law and once you fell out of that, you had to offer another offering to cleanse yourself again...
Jesus was the perfect sacrifice who took away the sins of the world that those who believe in Him and confess shall be saved and to those who did believe, the Lord sees righteous, the blood of Jesus blots out our transgressions so that God cannot see them anymore, that is why we put on Christ so that when God sees us, He does not see sin but righteousness, it was written that He who had no sin took on Sin for us.
We need Christ so that we do not need to live a perfect lawful life... under law we only have death, under Jesus, we have life!!! -
one more thing about the trinity, you look at it this way the trinity in because God the father, Jesus the son and the Holy Spirit are 3 different facets of the same person, so therefore one God 3 facets and not multiple facets or gods like the chinese or hindus... which are really just evil spirits in disguise.
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Originally posted by breytonhartge:so therefore one God 3 facets and not multiple facets or gods like the chinese or hindus... which are really just evil spirits in disguise.
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huh!!Originally posted by breytonhartge:We need Christ so that we do not need to live a perfect lawful life... under law we only have death, under Jesus, we have life!!!
isn't it, we are always improving and learning from Jesus Christ so we can be like Him and live a "perfect lawful life" especially in Heaven..? -
hi ito,
no, we live now under grace, the law does not apply... for we are either under law or under grace... since you have accepted Christ, you are under grace... no longer under law because a life under law only ends in death...
we as believers live under grace. -
U know, a hypocritical Christian who simply preach hatred against other religions was flamed to the extent he volunteer to go out of the forum.Originally posted by breytonhartge:one more thing about the trinity, you look at it this way the trinity in because God the father, Jesus the son and the Holy Spirit are 3 different facets of the same person, so therefore one God 3 facets and not multiple facets or gods like the chinese or hindus... which are really just evil spirits in disguise.
Now come you..
To many, the three facets are prolly just a great marketing ploy of a evil spirits too....
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hey when did we ever preach hatred against other religions, just because we have an opinion does not mean we hate other religions, besides I have lots of friends who are non-believers and we get along fine... don't go imputing things where there are none... you are probably a trouble maker...as you say... leftie... if you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen... besides, this part of the forum is a CHRISTIAN ONE... so what are you doing here anyway... just want to make trouble... if you are seeking sure we will discuss with you, but as I can see laurence, you are here just to make trouble... and find fault... what then about the muslims who call us Christians names... and that we cannot preach to muslims in singapore but they can preach to us... besides why should you feel so threatened by the strength of our faith? if you don't believe it is up to you... we give you the facts as we know to be true, it is up to you to accept or not.. if you don't like what we say, then don't come here... you just make yourself more irritated... maybe you are the one that needs to chill.Originally posted by laurence82:U know, a hypocritical Christian who simply preach hatred against other religions was flamed to the extent he volunteer to go out of the forum.
Now come you..
To many, the three facets are prolly just a great marketing ploy of a evil spirits too.... -
Refer to your posts about Hindu and Chinese gods are evil spirits in the other threadOriginally posted by breytonhartge:hey when did we ever preach hatred against other religions, just because we have an opinion does not mean we hate other religions, besides I have lots of friends who are non-believers and we get along fine... don't go imputing things where there are none... you are probably a trouble maker...as you say... leftie...
Now eat your own words.... -
Imagine a church priest who stand at the gate of his church and start discussing about other religions, not only slandering them, but condemning them as well. And he said its his right to do so because he stand on the church grounds. Others passerbys are told they are welcomed not to listen to his speech, because he is within his spiritual grounds.Originally posted by breytonhartge:hey when did we ever preach hatred against other religions, just because we have an opinion does not mean we hate other religions, besides I have lots of friends who are non-believers and we get along fine... don't go imputing things where there are none... you are probably a trouble maker...as you say... leftie... if you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen... besides, this part of the forum is a CHRISTIAN ONE... so what are you doing here anyway... just want to make trouble... if you are seeking sure we will discuss with you, but as I can see laurence, you are here just to make trouble... and find fault... what then about the muslims who call us Christians names... and that we cannot preach to muslims in singapore but they can preach to us... besides why should you feel so threatened by the strength of our faith? if you don't believe it is up to you... we give you the facts as we know to be true, it is up to you to accept or not.. if you don't like what we say, then don't come here... you just make yourself more irritated... maybe you are the one that needs to chill.
This is a clever and subltle way of inciting conflicts and yet wanting to be held blameless.
Its sumthing i always admire many so called hypocritical christians for, the ability to manipulate the truth, light into dark, darkness into light.
Since when was the Muslims allowed to preach to Christians? Do you see non believers in madrasahs? But i do see, in schools like ACJC and SAJC, non believers were made to sit down and listen to hours of preachings.
Do these people know their rights? Being in a submissisive society in sg, we are just compliant to whatever instructions given to us. The teachers who knew better, didnt even do anything.
So Muslims had the upper hand? Thinks again, they were labelled terorrists just because only a few significant persons choose to join the warpath.
Not forgetting the silly crusade. -
And to this breytonhartge
in your perspective i am troublemaker, in my eyes, you are nuthing but a troublemaker that enjoy imputing stuff that are just bloody hogwash. -
what are you inciting? always saying that we christians hate other religions... it is a viewpoint get it? it is what we believe... just as the other "religions" have what they believe, so when I speak about what I believe, it is true for me... so sorry if you don't like itOriginally posted by laurence82:Imagine a church priest who stand at the gate of his church and start discussing about other religions, not only slandering them, but condemning them as well. And he said its his right to do so because he stand on the church grounds. Others passerbys are told they are welcomed not to listen to his speech, because he is within his spiritual grounds.
This is a clever and subltle way of inciting conflicts and yet wanting to be held blameless.
Its sumthing i always admire many so called hypocritical christians for, the ability to manipulate the truth, light into dark, darkness into light.
Since when was the Muslims allowed to preach to Christians? Do you see non believers in madrasahs? But i do see, in schools like ACJC and SAJC, non believers were made to sit down and listen to hours of preachings.
Do these people know their rights? Being in a submissisive society in sg, we are just compliant to whatever instructions given to us. The teachers who knew better, didnt even do anything.
So Muslims had the upper hand? Thinks again, they were labelled terorrists just because only a few significant persons choose to join the warpath.
Not forgetting the silly crusade.
they why do we christians have to put up with all the chanting and parying and the burning of joss sticks etc during the various festivals? why do we christians have to put up with the muslims who pray in mosques... and have it broadcast so loudly... talk about not preaching...
besides, anyone who goes to ACJC or SAJC should know what they are getting themselves into, they have a choice... these are christian institutions... so if you don't want to hear the preaching... then choose another JC... there are so many in singapore... as they say when in rome do as the romans do... so if you choose to go to a christian school, don't complain about having to listen to teachings about Christ... each school has its own rules and they are there for a reason...