Roman Catholic and protestant
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Haha time to chip in.
Anyway, RCs and Protestants. First and foremost, here is some background information and history in general about Christianity.
Jesus was a Jew. It is said that along with John and others, he may have been part of the Essenes or an Essenes-influenced Jewish sect. The Essenes were a sect of Jews that preached that the world was coming to an end, something which Jesus shared. Jesus was trying to change the Jewish religion from within - he probably never intended to create a new Church.
After Jesus's death, the Jewish authorities persecuted his disciples and followers. Amongst them, one of the persecutors was a man name Saul. After the persecution, stoning and killing of Stephen (Acts 7-8.1), he was enroute to persecute others when he had a religious experience and guess what, he converted and became one of Jesus's best followers. He was to become St Paul.
Well, the world didn't end and St Paul and the rest of Jesus's followers decided that they needed more structure in their organisation. That's when the physical body of the Church organisation began to be formed. One of the issues that the new Church faced was that because they were recruiting Gentiles as well, the Jews in the Church felt, among other thigns, that the Gentiles should be circumcised as well. It is here that the Church was seperated from Jewism. St Paul decided among other things that Christians did not need to be circumcised and stripped the Church of its Jewish flavour.
Another thing to note is that the Bible was only written down 100plus years after Jesus's death. Also, Bible researches have found out that the first 3 books of the NT, Luke, Matthew and Mark are based from information from a book now known as "Q." Much of the gospel was actually verbally transmitted and only written down much later. In fact, there were many gospels (10 or 11?) with different accounts. The Church decided which 4 fit the best and put it in the Bible. The rest can are kept in the vaults of the Vatican. -
This is false Mary is not co-mediator or co-redemptrix. And the role of Mary has been discussed many times, this thread is not the place to start another similar one because we all know eventually it is going to boil down to statements such as "You have distorted salvation history"
In RC theology, Mary is a co-mediator and the Co-Redemptrix.
For those who are truly interested , search for objective and unbiased sources of both Protestant and Catholic theology on the net.
That being said lets carry on with the main dicussion on where, when and how evengelization should take place. -
ok, until reading an article yesterday, i really thought that the dead souls are not yet in heaven. You're right Macross. HeheOriginally posted by SingaporeMacross:Good grief! You people don't believe in life eternal?! Don't you know that Jesus has already opened the gates of heaven?
An example would be Lazarus. The rich man was already suffering in hell. Jesus Christ said to the robber during crucifixion that 'TODAY, you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). 
Now i believe. -
wah .. you change so fast .. so can you refute your own arguments made previously made in the opposite camp?Originally posted by badzilla: Now i believe. 
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Originally posted by plo30360:
If I'm not wrong, what remains is only an "infalliable" papal declaration to push that into official RC theology.
This is false [b]Mary is not co-mediator or co-redemptrix. [/b]
But heck .. the late pope believes that, didn't he? And many Catholics too. You heard about the petition?
http://www.religioustolerance.org/mary_cor.htm -
Now I remember one of the reasons I left my religion since long ago....
Its because its so confusing and intimidating. Reading this thread, I hardly understood 25% of it. Or maybe my vocab is just lousy, I don't know... -
And why do you think the Pope did not invoke his right to make it an infalliable teaching?Originally posted by Icemoon:If I'm not wrong, what remains is only an "infalliable" papal declaration to push that into official RC theology.
But heck .. the late pope believes that, didn't he? And many Catholics too. You heard about the petition?
http://www.religioustolerance.org/mary_cor.htm
Secondly there are two very important paragraphs:
1.
"...the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator."
2.
"For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer. Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and by the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to His creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."
Notice something here, when the titles of co-mediatrix(co-redeemer) is used by the Pope, he states it cleary it is beacuse she coperated with the plan of salvation and not as many non-Catholic Christians claim that she has equal status as reedeemer.
But we are digressing, as I've stated before, eventually you and I both know how this line of discussion is going turn out. Let's carry on with the main topic and save such a discussion for a different day and a different thread. -
Wah lao, scare me...Originally posted by badzilla:ok, until reading an article yesterday, i really thought that the dead souls are not yet in heaven. You're right Macross. Hehe An example would be Lazarus. The rich man was already suffering in hell. Jesus Christ said to the robber during crucifixion that 'TODAY, you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). Now i believe. 
Be careful of what you read. -
One logical reason will be the effect of the decree on Protestants (the "bomb" ) and the ecumenical movement so supported by the Pope.Originally posted by plo30360:And why do you think the Pope did not invoke his right to make it an infalliable teaching?
I say again .. many Catholics support it. So this isn't any unorthodox thinking.Notice something here, when the titles of co-mediatrix(co-redeemer) is used by the Pope, he states it cleary it is beacuse she coperated with the plan of salvation and not as many non-Catholic Christians claim that she has equal status as reedeemer.
The pastor who baptised you also cooperated with the plan of salvation, but clearly the Virgin Mother's role is much much more than that. Are you trying to downplay her role in salvation?
Moreover the Protestant's argument is that they think only Christ is involved. So there is already a problem with the "co" title. -
That is 'cos you never pay attention during catechism class or bible study.Originally posted by gentlerock:Now I remember one of the reasons I left my religion since long ago....
Its because its so confusing and intimidating. Reading this thread, I hardly understood 25% of it. Or maybe my vocab is just lousy, I don't know...
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Hmm .. doesn't fit with the idea that Jesus resurrected from a dead body and his ascension was after that.Originally posted by badzilla:Jesus Christ said to the robber during crucifixion that 'TODAY, you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). Now i believe.
Biblical contradiction?!!! Where is SIS? -
Read the New Testament b4 u make sweeping statements like tt ie get ur facts right. nvm. u shld b -honoured- tt ppl like u were mentioned in the Bible. ill not care to elaborate
why don't u guide me on where I am wrong instead ? Yup, people like me were mentinoned to go down to hell. Maybe they use the word non-believer more than use the word women. Yup I am really honoured.Biblical contradiction?!!! Where is SIS?
Lets put it tis way. There r bible verses tat tell people tat the dead will go to heaven only on judgement day. There r some verses who say they go immediately after death. SO in the end when do the dead go to heaven if they go to heaven at all ? Nobody really knows because the verses contradict one another and there is no way to verify it. This is the fault of the bible for being contradictory and unclear. They can only choose which one they like to believe in more and tat is why there r so many varied and different teachings. My suggestions is don't just believe for the sake of believing or because they claimed to be right. Find enough evidences to start believing first. Personally, if the bible says it is perfect and yet it is not, then it is clear the whole bible is wrong and the religion which derives from it wrong as well. -
Jesus Christ said to the robber during crucifixion that 'TODAY, you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). Now i believe.
Jesus died on the cross on tt very dae n was taken up to heaven.... so those who believed in His sacrifice ie the robber who died with him was also taken up to heaven with Him... -
ccck, it doesn't make sense.
You cannot infer Paradise to be heaven, the latter is the place where all whose names are in the Book of Life will go. Moreover, if Christ has not yet resurrected, then no one can enter heaven through him.
I'm not an expert in biblical hermenutics, so here is something you can read: http://www.cin.org/users/james/questions/q117.htm
Have you changed your mind yet? -
What you written are not new. But one should read that with a pinch of salt, bearing in mind the wide spectrum of beliefs even among scholars. For example, Marcus Borg vs. Luke Timothy Johnson.Originally posted by samadhi_fire:Anyway, RCs and Protestants. First and foremost, here is some background information and history in general about Christianity. -
hm icemoon, honestly speaking, i rather tt ur sources are with biblical references rather than an explaination on the use of language. the latter is preeeetty subjective n isnt very substantial.
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Wow, Icemoon quotes from Catholic sources.
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Yeah .. I did it unknowingly also, until you told meOriginally posted by SingaporeMacross:Wow, Icemoon quotes from Catholic sources. -
I did quote some biblical references, I think it is on this page or the previous one.Originally posted by ccck:hm icemoon, honestly speaking, i rather tt ur sources are with biblical references rather than an explaination on the use of language. the latter is preeeetty subjective n isnt very substantial.
And language plays a very important role, please don't downplay it. It is through language (koine Greek) that one truly understands the NT. If language is like you wrote "pretty subjective n isn't very substantial", then it follows that your understanding of theology will also be very subjective and any explanation on your part will not be substantial too.
For example, many instances we find words in the original language (greek or hebrew) that has no equivalent in English or one word in English that was translated from different words in the original, hence it is very easy to miss the subtleties. -
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm
Nice read on Mary, I love this website.
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lol, dont worry, quite reliable de lar. i came across a website to post questions regarding Christianity. and i happened to see someone else posting the same question mar. so i read and understand liao lor...Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Wah lao, scare me...
Be careful of what you read.
pretty creepy, but God did let me see the post just when i need it. wahahaha... this is the site
http://stephentong.org/messages/193.html
but actually not much harm in believing whether we go directly to hell and heaven or not... u die and u will naturally know the answer. kao, i didnt expect this issue to get so big... it really DOESNT MATTER... die and u know liao lar................ no point debating over it. -
Are you Christian or anything?Originally posted by badzilla:but actually not much harm in believing whether we go directly to hell and heaven or not... u die and u will naturally know the answer. kao, i didnt expect this issue to get so big... it really DOESNT MATTER... die and u know liao lar................ no point debating over it. -
Haha, yeah new to it. What I feel important is our faith rather than debating whether hell and heaven is immediate isnt it?Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Are you Christian or anything?
There's nothing you do would make Him close the door... -
Welcome to the club.Originally posted by badzilla:Haha, yeah new to it. What I feel important is our faith rather than debating whether hell and heaven is immediate isnt it?
There's nothing you do would make Him close the door...
Faith is important. But faith in what? -
Faith in whatever SIS said are not true .. hahaOriginally posted by SingaporeMacross:Faith is important. But faith in what?