Roman Catholic and protestant
-
actually why evangelise ? If there really is god in tis world, then he is all mighty and all knowing and should have already determined who is gonna be christian and who is not going to. Obviously he do not want everyone to become christian so he do not show itself or evidences of its existence to the world. Talking about hearing the word, clearly everyone in singapore already knows wat is christainity. They all have heard the word and have decided to believe in the things they wanna believe. Evangelising, most of the time, also make the people of other religions more irritated by tis religion. Wat other purpose does evangelising serves ?
-
OMG .. SIS sounds like a Calvinist this time siah!Originally posted by stupidissmart:actually why evangelise ? If there really is god in tis world, then he is all mighty and all knowing and should have already determined who is gonna be christian and who is not going to.
Predestination.Talking about hearing the word, clearly everyone in singapore already knows wat is christainity. They all have heard the word and have decided to believe in the things they wanna believe.
I disagree politely. Many people heard the wrong message 'cos I can see there are many misconceptions. For example, why would xtians go around saying "you are going to hell you are going to hell"? They can't even convince non believers all of us are sinners. They not enlightened non believers that the grace of God is free but doesn't come cheap or easy. I bet the punchline of xtianity is "you are going to hell". I believe the RC brethens also hear this till sian liao?Evangelising, most of the time, also make the people of other religions more irritated by tis religion. Wat other purpose does evangelising serves ?
As written in the gospel, "make disciples of all nations .." -
I dun like it seriously...
there was once i'm eating with friend...than this lady come over and ask me what my religion ...i told her i'm a buddhism...
Than suddenly she bla bla bla...talk full of cock...ask me so what is your main of doing good deeds? i told her..there no special reason for doing good deeds... i believe it more of a moral value...than she was there..bla bla bla...say i lying..i'm doing good deeds..cuase of karma and stuff..saying that buddhism is so fake..doing good deed for a cuase...in the end make me totally piss off...so i just argue with her...told her not to be so judgement of other...respect other ppl religion..not go around asking what their religion and trying to insult...Dun want to give up..i stay there agruing with her..till my friend come over and stop us...
But guess what?? she found out my friend is a catholic..and turn around to challage him.....tell u the feeling really so bth...feel so darn piss off... -
I disagree politely. Many people heard the wrong message 'cos I can see there are many misconceptions. For example, why would xtians go around saying "you are going to hell you are going to hell"? They can't even convince non believers all of us are sinners. They not enlightened non believers that the grace of God is free but doesn't come cheap or easy. I bet the punchline of xtianity is "you are going to hell". I believe the RC brethens also hear this till sian liao?
actually... wat is the right concepts ? Different schools of thought believe in totally different things altogether. In conclusion, it is not wrong to say tat non-believers go to hell. Tat is really the bottom line. About all people being sinners, well when u r borned u have already sinned. The idea of sinning is really too unfair and flawed to be, well, believed logically to have come from a perfect being. God want non-sinners to go to heaven, but he purposely let only christians who perhaps had sinned much to go there. In today context, it is really dirty politics tat aim to shut off non-believers
Actually I find the line "the grace of God is free but doesn't come cheap or easy" sort of contradictory since if it is cheap, it means a price had to be paid and is therefore not free. -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
Its not about being 'good' in that context(though I understand what you are trying to say). But if you actually believe in something, then you usually live out that belief. How can you preach when you live a life contradicting that belief? But that is what a lot of 'preachers' do. I'm only saying the person who preaches should actually lead by example. The preaching and living out go hand in hand.
Like i said, ultimately they just see you as a good guy, no different from other religions. Can you be "gooder" than others?
People do not come to you just because you are 'good'. As Christians we are supposed to love, not just being good.
Why would people come to them for this reason? Wah .. even ask you to share somemore.
How many conversion testimonies we heard are like that?
I do not doubt that good behaviour give good impression, which of course makes preaching easier, but I don't understand why will people come to you just 'cos you are good?
If you can perform miracles I can understand, but good
Non-believers who are sincere to find out about the faith:
1. Are first drawn to the 'good' life.
2. They realize that goodness comes out of love.
That is what I meant by people will naturally come to you if you actually live out the faith. -
Originally posted by stupidissmart:
Huh .. who are the non-sinners?
God want non-sinners to go to heaven, but he purposely let only christians who perhaps had sinned much to go there. In today context, it is really dirty politics tat aim to shut off non-believersActually I find the line "the grace of God is free but doesn't come cheap or easy" sort of contradictory since if it is cheap, it means a price had to be paid and is therefore not free.
Yes .. the price had to be paid .. and it was paid .. by Jesus on the cross 
It is free as you are not the one paying.
Here is an analogy, dun slam me for it as I heard this from bible study session - is our independence to you free? Yes, obviously it is, it is free to us, and our future generations as well. But it doesn't come cheap or easy 'cos our forefathers fought for it, LKY fought for it, the PAP fought for it. Do not think grace is cheap though it is free to you.
-
Haha .. you ask her "if you think you know the answer why still bother to ask me? Are xtians fond of asking stupid qns?" Shoot her until she run away .. hahaOriginally posted by zheshi:Than suddenly she bla bla bla...talk full of cock...ask me so what is your main of doing good deeds? i told her..there no special reason for doing good deeds... i believe it more of a moral value...than she was there..bla bla bla...say i lying..i'm doing good deeds..cuase of karma and stuff..saying that buddhism is so fake..doing good deed for a cuase
I think the karma reason is secondary, there might be buddhists who put karma as first reason, but imho buddhists do good deeds 'cos of compassion. Correct me if I am wrong.Dun want to give up..i stay there agruing with her..till my friend come over and stop us...
A sight to behold.
But guess what?? she found out my friend is a catholic..and turn around to challage him.....tell u the feeling really so bth...feel so darn piss off...
Your friend should challenge the woman about John 3:16 and John 14:6. Haha .. I don't believe these people can go deep into theological arguments .. so stun her then walk away can liao. -
Hi SIS, busy huh.... well don't work too hard....Originally posted by stupidissmart:Actually I find the line "the grace of God is free but doesn't come cheap or easy" sort of contradictory since if it is cheap, it means a price had to be paid and is therefore not free.
Actually your statement is no different from people selling you a product and promise a FREE GIFT. The gift is really not free either, 'cos the cost is probably built into the selling price of the first product or being factored into the Advertising and Promotional budget.
The concept of Free Gift is that the recipient need not PAY for the gift. Whether someone else pays for it or not is really not the issue to the recipient, but fact is, someone else did.
Cheers.... -
is it even illegal to preach and haress people in the streets of singapore on their religon?
-
I think the government's White Paper on Religious Harmony has a clause in there that states that it is illegal to preach to the public this way (though I am not sure of the exact wordings). However, if the listener makes not objection to that "conversation" that it is perfectly legal. You have EVERY right to tell anyone who preaches to you go to away, and you SHOULD use this right.Originally posted by subsuxor:is it even illegal to preach and haress people in the streets of singapore on their religon? -
Huh .. who are the non-sinners?
If u do not sin u can go to heaven too isn't it ? But strangely no one can be sinless. It is not even possible . Tat is why I say it is like dirty politics where it was proclaim loudly but in truth it doesn't make any difference.Yes .. the price had to be paid .. and it was paid .. by Jesus on the cross It is free as you are not the one paying.
My first understanding of your statement is u need to fulfil certain criteria before being able to go to salvation such as perform less sin or love everyone, which is something tat take considerable effort and not easy to do. U r still paying the toll and tis is not free.
(There is again the issue of being a christian is itself not free but lets talk about the point above first)The concept of Free Gift is that the recipient need not PAY for the gift. Whether someone else pays for it or not is really not the issue to the recipient, but fact is, someone else did.
Well tat come to a question whether is labour consider to be paying for the gift. Some pay for the "gift" but expect u to perform certain actions over times. Is it still free ? (as in above point) -
People do not come to you just because you are 'good'. As Christians we are supposed to love, not just being good.
Actually, my personal opinion is monks in buddhism seem to be performing much good to society as well. We can't really say tat their goodness do not come from loves while christian who lead a "good" life definitely comes from love. For me, a religion asking people to do good deeds doesn't means it is right.... Who knows maybe a cult tat worship devil like people r the right one (meaning there really is a devil like deity and events happened as described by them)
Non-believers who are sincere to find out about the faith:
1. Are first drawn to the 'good' life.
2. They realize that goodness comes out of love.
That is what I meant by people will naturally come to you if you actually live out the faith. -
Originally posted by stupidissmart:Actually, my personal opinion is monks in buddhism seem to be performing much good to society as well. We can't really say tat their goodness do not come from loves while christian who lead a "good" life definitely comes from love. For me, a religion asking people to do good deeds doesn't means it is right.... Who knows maybe a cult tat worship devil like people r the right one (meaning there really is a devil like deity and events happened as described by them) actually you are quite right. Christians do not have the monopoly of good works, and personally, I'd respect Rev Sek Ming Yi (hope I spelt the name right) more in NKF doing dangerous stunts than any Christian evangelist in Singapore where good works is concern.
Having said that Christian is not only about good works. The concept of Christianity is salvation by faith (which of course you may disagree ), but that is THE crux of Christianity, not the good works. I have seen many examples personally that some "good works" done by Christian groups or organisation stems from the purpose of wanting to evangelise, so personally, to me, there is an secondary motive hidden (which I don't agree with). -
Actually where theology is concern, there are a few avenues of thoughts over what is the true concept of salvation, and does good work play a part in it?Originally posted by stupidissmart:Well tat come to a question whether is labour consider to be paying for the gift. Some pay for the "gift" but expect u to perform certain actions over times. Is it still free ? (as in above point)
I believe in RCs theology, good work is an integral part of salvation, while most protestants will state that the only one thing that one need to do is to RECEIVE salvation by accepting Christ as their personal saviour. Good work is not part of the equation. So under this concept, receive something can hardly be considered as "performing certain actions over times". No different from stretching out one's hand when you buy something from a shop and getting a gift in the process, or even going to a place to redeem some free things which may even involving paying a bus fare or taxi charge to go to. So would you still consider the so-called gift as free? -
Maintenance of Religious Harmony Act
PART III
RESTRAINING ORDERS
Restraining orders against officials or members of religious group or institution
8. —(1) The Minister may make a restraining order against any priest, monk, pastor, imam, elder, office-bearer or any other person who is in a position of authority in any religious group or institution or any member thereof for the purposes specified in subsection (2) where the Minister is satisfied that that person has committed or is attempting to commit any of the following acts:
(a) causing feelings of enmity, hatred, ill-will or hostility between different religious groups;
(b) carrying out activities to promote a political cause, or a cause of any political party while, or under the guise of, propagating or practising any religious belief;
(c) carrying out subversive activities under the guise of propagating or practising any religious belief; or
(d) exciting disaffection against the President or the Government while, or under the guise of, propagating or practising any religious belief.
(2) An order made under subsection (1) may be made against the person named therein for the following purposes:
(a) restraining him from addressing orally or in writing any congregation, parish or group of worshippers or members of any religious group or institution on any subject, topic or theme as may be specified in the order without the prior permission of the Minister;
(b) restraining him from printing, publishing, editing, distributing or in any way assisting or contributing to any publication produced by any religious group without the prior permission of the Minister;
(c) restraining him from holding office in an editorial board or a committee of a publication of any religious group without the prior permission of the Minister.
(3) Any order made under this section shall be for such period, not exceeding 2 years, as may be specified therein.
(4) Before making an order under this section, the Minister shall give the person against whom the order is proposed to be made and the head or governing body or committee of management of the religious group or institution which is to be named in the proposed order, notice of his intention to make the order together with the grounds and allegations of fact in support thereof and of their right to make written representations to the Minister.
(5) The Minister shall have regard to such representations in making the order.
(6) All written representations under subsection (4) must be made within 14 days of the date of the notice of the MinisterÂ’s intention to make an order under this section.
Restraining orders against other persons
9. —(1) Where the Minister is satisfied that —
(a) any person is inciting, instigating or encouraging any religious group or religious institution or any person mentioned in subsection (1) of section 8 to commit any of the acts specified in that subsection;
(b) any person, other than persons mentioned in subsection (1) of section 8, has committed or is attempting to commit any of the acts specified in paragraph (a) of that subsection,
he may make a restraining order against him.
(2) Without affecting the generality of subsection (1), an order made under this section may restrain the person named therein from addressing or advising any religious group or religious institution or any member thereof or making any statement or causing any statement to be made, whether orally or in writing, concerning or affecting the relations between that religious group or religious institution and the Government or any other religious group or religious institution. -
Restraining order isnt enough.
I personally felt people who flout such rules should be jailed, if the offence and actions are serious enough. -
I have seen many examples personally that some "good works" done by Christian groups or organisation stems from the purpose of wanting to evangelise, so personally, to me, there is an secondary motive hidden (which I don't agree with).
From the reply from plo30360, it do give me the idea tat one of the reason why christians r performing good deeds maybe is to evangelise to the people.Actually where theology is concern, there are a few avenues of thoughts over what is the true concept of salvation, and does good work play a part in it?
If just accepting christ as a saviour will guarantee salvation, then I guess these people r free to commit any sins they want as long as they repent, they do not have to do good deeds and god will just let them through as long as he is obedient to him. The deeds u do doesn't matter. Then it is really true to them tat a christian hitler can go to heaven while a mother teresa like buddhist will go to hell. Hell is just a place where he dump the people tat do not... well... carry his... never mind...
I believe in RCs theology, good work is an integral part of salvation, while most protestants will state that the only one thing that one need to do is to RECEIVE salvation by accepting Christ as their personal saviour. Good work is not part of the equation. If tat is the case, personal opinion is tis god is not really the god which was perfect as describe and we should not fear them some line from the kingdom of heavenSo under this concept, receive something can hardly be considered as "performing certain actions over times". No different from stretching out one's hand when you buy something from a shop and getting a gift in the process, or even going to a place to redeem some free things which may even involving paying a bus fare or taxi charge to go to. So would you still consider the so-called gift as free?
Well, then it boils down to the question on whether does believing in christ considered an action or not. If u have to help a person carry a burden, like a bag of luggage, maybe for life, is it a labour ? -
actually, as I had said too, there will be some who does this, and it is something that I do not agree on.Originally posted by stupidissmart:From the reply from plo30360, it do give me the idea tat one of the reason why christians r performing good deeds maybe is to evangelise to the people.
This really is the trick, true acceptance is suppose to bring a change in one's character, hence there shouldn't be a "Christian Hitler". I don't think Mom Theresa is a Buddhist 'cos she's from a Catholic order of nuns. I don't want to go into a RC/Protestant debate, but I am quite sure the Lord smiles on her.Originally posted by stupidissmart:If just accepting christ as a saviour will guarantee salvation, then I guess these people r free to commit any sins they want as long as they repent, they do not have to do good deeds and god will just let them through as long as he is obedient to him. The deeds u do doesn't matter. Then it is really true to them tat a christian hitler can go to heaven while a mother teresa like buddhist will go to hell. Hell is just a place where he dump the people tat do not... well... carry his... never mind... If tat is the case, personal opinion is tis god is not really the god which was perfect as describe and we should not fear them some line from the kingdom of heaven
Acceptance is not a verbal agreement but a life changing experience, but because we will be dealing with abstracts here, it becomes very difficult to judge. I guess the only way is to interact with some Christians and seeing how they operate will show who's the real deal and who's not.
Well, by most definitions, a belief is not considered an action per se, but more of a thought. Wherein "Action" is usually seen to be physical in nature. But I really do not wish to split hairs on this, but there IS a difference between a thought (mental) and action (physical).Originally posted by stupidissmart:Well, then it boils down to the question on whether does believing in christ considered an action or not. If u have to help a person carry a burden, like a bag of luggage, maybe for life, is it a labour ? -
You fail to consider the power of the Holy Ghost. Ok, I mean you fail to consider the regeneration aspects of salvation. You always think salvation like humans exploiting the law. Like a hacker unrepentant 'cos he thinks by migrating to a country where cybercrime law is lax, the govt cannot prosecute him. Also something like a double jeopardy card, ie. you cannot be prosecuted twice for substanially the same crime.Originally posted by stupidissmart:If just accepting christ as a saviour will guarantee salvation, then I guess these people r free to commit any sins they want as long as they repent, they do not have to do good deeds and god will just let them through as long as he is obedient to him.
Like Chin Eng, I don't think a Christian Hitler can exist. Don't leave out regeneration in the equation.
Actually many christians are doing exactly the opposite SIS is describing. They are trying very hard, in fact too hard, to be "on the ball". They are actively conscious of any sinful actions. They make sure they don't break the 10 commandments. See chio bu must recite "thou shall not commit adultery"
The result - they fall back on laws. -
May I know what denomination of christian is City Harvest?? I've been wondering abt it for some time.
-
My reply was not to show that evengelization only occurs by good deeds or to show that only Christians perfom good deeds out of love.
Neither do I agree with groups that do 'good' works for the motive of converting people. You live out the faith because that is what you are supposed to do and if by that process you mange to become a witness for Christ than good. Otherwise the group should just have one motive and that is to help people.
I was trying to state that a lot of people who 'preach' the faith(regardless of religion, though Christians are more agressive) don't actually live it out. They are only interested in how many people they can baptize. Kind of like selling flag day coupons.
So by all means preach but make sure you'r living out the faith.
Now about good deeds just to evengelize, is a bit off. In the first place we love(good is not suffcient) not just because we want to show people how 'good' we've become after 'embracing' the Christian faith but because that is the essence of faith :to love. Following that instruction we love(or doing 'good') for the sake of loving and not primarily because we want to evengelize people. -
They consider themselves to be non-denominational.Originally posted by GrimR:May I know what denomination of christian is City Harvest?? I've been wondering abt it for some time.
off-topic: How many Christians here even consider themselves to be part of a denomination? -
This really is the trick, true acceptance is suppose to bring a change in one's character, hence there shouldn't be a "Christian Hitler". I don't think Mom Theresa is a Buddhist 'cos she's from a Catholic order of nuns. I don't want to go into a RC/Protestant debate, but I am quite sure the Lord smiles on her.
I need to clarify the terms of a buddhist "mother teresa" is a person who performs good deeds like mother teresa, only her belief is buddhism. I use to use the term mother teresa but it still basically deals with the bible and is not a good example.
Acceptance is not a verbal agreement but a life changing experience, but because we will be dealing with abstracts here, it becomes very difficult to judge. I guess the only way is to interact with some Christians and seeing how they operate will show who's the real deal and who's not.
About the appearence of "christian hitler", IMO it can happen. Basically because the same bible, when read by the different people, can come out with different interpretations. Tat is why there are many denomination of christainity. A normal person, after believing in god may turn out to change for the worse, becoming more violent and use more force simply because the bible depict god using much force, violence and elimination to solve its problems and deal with disagreement.Well, by most definitions, a belief is not considered an action per se, but more of a thought. Wherein "Action" is usually seen to be physical in nature. But I really do not wish to split hairs on this, but there IS a difference between a thought (mental) and action
From my perception, thinking or thoughts do take out considerably effort and in fact r really getting paid for it. The value of a programmer is not on its typing skills but understanding of problem, syntex, problem formulation and solution. It is mainly "thoughts" tat rationalise its high pay. In fact most jobs value "mental activity" higher than physical ones. A mental action is work and labour.You fail to consider the power of the Holy Ghost. Ok, I mean you fail to consider the regeneration aspects of salvation. You always think salvation like humans exploiting the law. Like a hacker unrepentant 'cos he thinks by migrating to a country where cybercrime law is lax, the govt cannot prosecute him. Also something like a double jeopardy card, ie. you cannot be prosecuted twice for substanially the same crime.
Actually when people comes out with laws, there r a group of people who come out with some examples to check and see if there r any loopholes to the system. I am not saying people should look out for loopholes, I am saying tat the system can punish/reward people unfairly due to the system loopholes.Actually many christians are doing exactly the opposite SIS is describing
Tat really depend on wat u believe in. If the person views good deeds and sinless is important, he willbe on the ball. If a person view just accepting christ as the only criteria, u can see him more free to perform bad deeds. There r even some fanatic who views god actions of violence as the right actions and use it on his daily life. Tat is why when Eng Chin says some people just believe accepting christ as salvation is good enough, believing solely can wash all sins, then they really do believe in unfairness and they probably do much "sins" -
Originally posted by stupidissmart:
after all these while you got my nick WRONG????
Tat really depend on wat u believe in. If the person views good deeds and sinless is important, he willbe on the ball. If a person view just accepting christ as the only criteria, u can see him more free to perform bad deeds. There r even some fanatic who views god actions of violence as the right actions and use it on his daily life. Tat is why when Eng Chin says some people just believe accepting christ as salvation is good enough, believing solely can wash all sins, then they really do believe in unfairness and they probably do much "sins"
so disappointed.... -
Originally posted by Chin Eng:after all these while you got my nick WRONG???? so disappointed....