Harry Potter
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I guess the point is: when your parents decided that they wanted to send you to a mission school, you are suppose to follow the rules imposed by the school. Meaning to say, if for some strange reason, if your parents decided to send you to a Madrasah school, you have to abide by their practice. So if you are a Methodist/Anglican/Catholic school you have to attend worship service/mass/school assembly with prayer etc.
No, I am not defending Christian schools with dumb rules pertaining to Harry Potter and Pokemon. As a matter of fact, I wrote to my sons' school that a session conducted by the Religious Emphasis teacher on Satanism on Pokemon is at best based on a myth and heresay, which of course when translated means preaching of "lies".
One need to understand that from the school's standpoint, defending a theology goes beyond what the creed of the denomination. They also have to deal with a larger general public (in the form of Christian parents) who may have rather conservative views towards such genre. Some of these parents may have a large say (due to financial or political influences) on the running of the school. There is also the public face they have to consider.
Unfortunate, rules are not there to make people happy. Rules are there to ensure that the school (or any other authorities) have an easier time working. A rule that I have found dumb is not even religious in nature. I don't understand why some schools ban mobile phones when this equipment is no longer seen as a luxury but a necessity. Still school authorities will threaten students with punishment and confiscating the equipment if a child is found to hold on to one. -
I'm surprised by the double standards. Are chinese of other religions, even free thinkers, viewed any less special than our Muslim counterparts? And what about Hindus and Sikhs?Originally posted by laurence82:Basically they let all Malay and Indian Muslims go off. As long as you are Chinese and others, they forced you to attend the chapel. That time still young, everyone just tiam tiam blur blur follow....
Ironically, Christians can say Muslims worship the same God, but their closest religious relatives are excluded from the mass/service. -
Have you heard about the debacle about Malay bibles? I don't think they want a repeat of that.Originally posted by Icemoon:I'm surprised by the double standards. Are chinese of other religions, even free thinkers, viewed any less special than our Muslim counterparts? And what about Hindus and Sikhs?
Ironically, Christians can say Muslims worship the same God, but their closest religious relatives are excluded from the mass/service. -
Off topic but TELL ME LEH!
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Actually i wasnt thinking along this line. Among the many religions in Singapore, the Muslim community bond the strongest, and hold on to their faith stronger than any other religion. Therefore, the schools which sought to spread the gospels would exclude them out. Its even more so after the 911 incident.Originally posted by Icemoon:I'm surprised by the double standards. Are chinese of other religions, even free thinkers, viewed any less special than our Muslim counterparts? And what about Hindus and Sikhs?
Ironically, Christians can say Muslims worship the same God, but their closest religious relatives are excluded from the mass/service.
Well, as whether Christians and Muslims worship the same God, i believe not all Christians and not all Muslims would agree. I dont see Christians readily reading the Koran, and Muslims do shun away from things that look like a cross. Islam to Christianity, to some, is like Christianity to Judaism. Its more of personal disagreement, than technical disparity.
I believe the the reason why others are forced to join is because they deemed as less faithful, or does not hold on to their own faith stronger than Muslims, or u can even say that being an evangelistic missionary school, other faiths are deemed worthless, no matter how much the school is subservient to the gahmen and the religious harmony act. Come on, the first thing a Christian must do is to deny other faiths, and it depends on what level u are willing to do it. Some deny other faiths, do not practise teachigs of other faith, but accept other faiths do exist. That is pretty allright. I am only irked that many Christians, not all, speak and act as though the whole world only contain them. This is a dangerous thought and action, which pretty explained for the debacles in this forum as well as the school behaviour towards non Christians.
But interestingly, ask any teacher or senior department head or even the principal this question, he or she will probably be dumbstruck, if he does not use the excuse of following school rule or quoting from the Bible.
Regarding the school rules on hair fringe and all that ,all school practise it. The school was most probably based it on proper upkeep and presentation of oneself, but students were probably thinking more along the line of fashion and style.
Well, rules are meant and will be broken anyway. -
Initially, i did agree with ur first point. In Rome, do as the Roman does. But as i grew older, i find this reasoning not logical.Originally posted by Chin Eng:I guess the point is: when your parents decided that they wanted to send you to a mission school, you are suppose to follow the rules imposed by the school. Meaning to say, if for some strange reason, if your parents decided to send you to a Madrasah school, you have to abide by their practice. So if you are a Methodist/Anglican/Catholic school you have to attend worship service/mass/school assembly with prayer etc.
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Unfortunate, rules are not there to make people happy. Rules are there to ensure that the school (or any other authorities) have an easier time working. A rule that I have found dumb is not even religious in nature. I don't understand why some schools ban mobile phones when this equipment is no longer seen as a luxury but a necessity. Still school authorities will threaten students with punishment and confiscating the equipment if a child is found to hold on to one.
With the phasing out of Religious Studies, schools are getting more and more secular in nature. The primary purpose of a school is to provide that education secular in nature - maths science english language history. Its necessary to differentiate between madrasashs and Christians missionary schools nowadays. Madrasahs are wholly centred on the Islamic teachings. They do have secular subjects, but they have Islamic studies too. On the other hand, Christian missionary schools strictly follow MOE guidelines and syllabus, and wholly provide education secular in nature. Students are going to school for that education first, and spirituality second in priority. While its not wrong for schools to provide a spiritual avenue for the students, by no mean should it be the main thing for students, and that they shld be forced to attend services.
Second, 'doing as the Roman does' is a poor excuse. Consider this, do the students have much choices as to which schools they can attend, especially JCs? If three missionary JCs say, if u come to this school, u will have to follow the culture and attend services, can the students who dont like it simply opt out to other schools? No way! Other JCs will be running out of vacancies and squeezed out. It will be nightmare. Remember, they are admitted to the JC based on their O level results, never on their faith. Considering all the requirements to attend schools, even the distance between home and school, results, preference of the school ECAs etc etc, most simply dont have a choice.
Lastly, school rules being school rules, shld never run to the contravention of the rights enshrined in the Constitution and laws - freedom to religious belief. It will be greatly ironic that schools preach and force people to attend mass, while trying to teach students to be good, obey the law, commemorate Religious Harmony Day, yada yada....
the singapore school system is in such a way, students conform to rules and regulations wherever they go. U dont get much complaints from these aspects because the students havent a clue what they are in for. -
What the heck is a Malay bible?Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Have you heard about the debacle about Malay bibles? I don't think they want a repeat of that.
Do u meant to say the Islamic Koran? -
To a large extent you are not wrong. However do bear in mind that the mission schools' board of directors are affiliated to the churches. The schools which have a missionary agenda is subsequently supported by the government. Hence the phrase "aided schools". As such the schools CAN and WILL dictate the spiritual agenda. Again, I am not here to agree or disagree with such agenda. Obviously because of the "missionary" nature of the Christian religion, there is a large number of Christian schools as oppose to Buddhist-mission schools.Originally posted by laurence82:Initially, i did agree with ur first point. In Rome, do as the Roman does. But as i grew older, i find this reasoning not logical......
Of course it is entirely possible that a school which started with a mission agenda can evolve to be totally secular. I can see that happening in some of more renown "Christian" school.
I don't see why not...Originally posted by laurence82:Second, 'doing as the Roman does' is a poor excuse. Consider this, do the students have much choices as to which schools they can attend, especially JCs? If three missionary JCs say, if u come to this school, u will have to follow the culture and attend services, can the students who dont like it simply opt out to other schools? No way! Other JCs will be running out of vacancies and squeezed out. It will be nightmare. Remember, they are admitted to the JC based on their O level results, never on their faith. Considering all the requirements to attend schools, even the distance between home and school, results, preference of the school ECAs etc etc, most simply dont have a choice.
There's VJC, NYJC, TJC, RJC, HCJC and a few others that I don't care to name.
Christian ones? SAJC (Anglican), ACJC (Methodist), CJC (Catholic)... are there others??? So I'd venture a guess to say that non-Christian JCs grossly outnumber Christian ones.
No choice? Of course not. If the requirement to attend the religious activites in such colleges grossly offend the student, the distances, preferences of ECAs should not matter, should it? -
Malay bible.... Bahasa Melayu version of the Christian Bible....Originally posted by laurence82:What the heck is a Malay bible?
Do u meant to say the Islamic Koran?
However I did not know that it was an issue..... -
Yah, onli three...Originally posted by Chin Eng:I don't see why not... There's VJC, NYJC, TJC, RJC, HCJC and a few others that I don't care to name.
Christian ones? SAJC (Anglican), ACJC (Methodist), CJC (Catholic)... are there others??? So I'd venture a guess to say that non-Christian JCs grossly outnumber Christian ones.
No choice? Of course not. If the requirement to attend the religious activites in such colleges grossly offend the student, the distances, preferences of ECAs should not matter, should it?
At the expense of his interest and A level results? Even if attending services offend the student, seriously, it will be disadvantageous to the student if he has to move to other JCs. I dislike onli two things abt ACJC, the teachers and the services, but the other stuff is great
They have great student culture, facilities as well as sport complex and many other things. Just to avoid a service, a student have to travel further away, or pic a jc which i do not like for many reasons etc. It will be grossly unfair, and hence where is so called education provided for him which has always been based on secualr education system??
Btw, while it simple to say many non christian jc outnumber christian jcs, it doesnt mean there will be exodus of christians from secular jcs to the three jcs right away, they will stay where they like it, and non christians, with their preferences and results, don have other choices...
and to ease the increasing number of students, after my year, they built pioneer, meridien and i believe few other new jcs to ease the problem. any exodus of students based on preference for different faith pose a logistical nightmare for MOE. -
shouldnt be an issue bah..Originally posted by Chin Eng:Malay bible.... Bahasa Melayu version of the Christian Bible....
However I did not know that it was an issue..... 
I read before that Bible, way back then, wasnt supposed to be translated in other languages other than Latin. I hope people wont have the mediavel age thinking again.... -
Originally posted by laurence82:Yah, onli three... goes to show that you cannot have your cake and eat it too..... still I guess your experience in AC is still positive - the culture etc. This is a very important point isn't it? The Methodist church poured in a lot of money into the AC group of schools, so it might not be too unfair to expect the agenda of missionary in the effort. Malay bible? I guess there is still the sensitivity of the Muslims... why do you think their medical corp is called the RED CRESCENT instead of THE RED CROSS.... There is something about the way Christian icons is deemed offensive to the Muslims though it should be noted that the RED CROSS is not the CHRISTIAN CROSS....
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guess the point is: when your parents decided that they wanted to send you to a mission school, you are suppose to follow the rules imposed by the school. Meaning to say, if for some strange reason, if your parents decided to send you to a Madrasah school, you have to abide by their practice. So if you are a Methodist/Anglican/Catholic school you have to attend worship service/mass/school assembly with prayer etc.
To a large extent you are not wrong. However do bear in mind that the mission schools' board of directors are affiliated to the churches. The schools which have a missionary agenda is subsequently supported by the government. Hence the phrase "aided schools". As such the schools CAN and WILL dictate the spiritual agenda. Again, I am not here to agree or disagree with such agenda. Obviously because of the "missionary" nature of the Christian religion, there is a large number of Christian schools as oppose to Buddhist-mission schools.
still I guess your experience in AC is still positive - the culture etc. This is a very important point isn't it? The Methodist church poured in a lot of money into the AC group of schools, so it might not be too unfair to expect the agenda of missionary in the effort
Really ? I expect to go to a "mission" school just because I expect it to be a normal school. I mean, the position of the school is determined by the population density or people and school isn't it ? How many JCs r there in singapore ? I believe it is to be less than 20, and most of them may be too far, can't qualify or over qualified to even consider about. So if we do not want to attend any religious practise, then we have to limit the number of choices we had ? Aren't we discriminated then ? U pay for some of the funds for the school, but so does the Gov. And my family pay tax for the gov. If u want to receive fiancial help from them, then make sure u follow their requirements, tat is no forcing of student from other religion to practise wat your reiligion teaches. Don't just take the fiancial aid then break the conditions tat comes with it. Aren't u taking the cake (fiancial assistance) and eating it ?One need to understand that from the school's standpoint, defending a theology goes beyond what the creed of the denomination. They also have to deal with a larger general public (in the form of Christian parents) who may have rather conservative views towards such genre. Some of these parents may have a large say (due to financial or political influences) on the running of the school. There is also the public face they have to consider.
U want to go for mass, it is your business. Don't force others to go. If u want to ban hairy putter books, don't let it affect the other people who don't believe wat u r doing is right. So wat if some of the "parents" r rich and powerful ? The schhols have to follow their whim and fancy ? I think tat is something like corruption isn't it ? U want to donate money, u want to help out, then do it volunteerily. U don't donate money in the hope of controlling the organisation isn't it ? [/b] -
It's not a discrimination. You're limited by your own choice or preference. It's not like the schools don't allow you to enrol just because you're not of a certain belief. I don't think MOE has any requirements on religious issues for schools. Their requirements are basically academic and administrative.
Personally, as long as the school doesn't make you do degrading or unethical acts, some rules are harmless. -
if you don't want to goto mass, its your right and choice, and the school can't do anything about it. Lan Lan..
if the school bans harry potter books its the school's right and choice, shut up and get on with your life. simple?
quite fair wat.. the way i see it.
anyway stupidissmart, now you know the "mission" school is slightly different, you can always opt out and change school. if you're not smart enough to go to a good school without the religious constrants, then suck thumb la. complain so much for what?
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Typical Singaporean behaviour ..everything LPPL..no wonder our society remain stagnated in terms of intellectual thinking and social grace....
Read newpapers recently? Western nations becoming more aware, and aim to resolves and be more sensitive to issues regarding race or religion within its community..
And here we are enacting religious harmony act and talking abt lan lan
Wad a great irony man.... -
Forcing students to attend mass or services is not unethical and degrading?
Evangelism is always associated with colonialism way back. There are many stories of Christian misisonaries doing forced conversion of tribal groups with gun and swords. It reflect Christians total disregard for the real world they are actually living in.
And we still having examples of such 'colonialistic' behaviour among our people today. Such missionary schools are nothing but relics of such shameful colonial past, and who are to continue such thing but the very descendants of of the colonialised people.
No wonder Asians are the joke of the world man... -
and now, its the christians who are shot to death, tortured in china for evangelism, they certainly didn't bring guns and swords into the picture.
pls la. watever happened in the past weren't our fault. and we don't blame anyone for torturing us now either.
true what, the school can't stop you from not attending mass, its a freedom of choice, so lan lan. the school choose to ban the books, i don't see what's wrong with that.
its like the above statement about a buddhist school with a rule which requires the students to bow to a buddha statue when they pass by it. the students LL oso have to bow wat. i never said they were infringing the students rights right? it is equally degrading to bow to a rock, whatever your believes are. i don't see you arguing to "free" them right?
if you don't like the rules, change school lor, if you joined the school because of her reputation, and if reputation is your piority, see if you can go into RI lor, if cannot, suck thumb la. what you want?
talk about "irony" we christians are not the only "ironic" ones
you want to talk about religious harmony? harry potter books promotes witchcraft, which is against our believes. its only natural for the school of a christian background to ban it. are you "religiously sensitive" enough to see that? are you sure you aren't bias at all? the school didn't crucify the students for reading it, just merely disallow the students from reading it in school, you're free to do whatever you like outside it. it's pretty fair rule. and in doing so, they didn't compromise their believes, but didn't impose and try to change their lives outside the school boundaries
nuff said. -
comparing the amt of damage done by colonial power and misisonaries to those done by colonialised nations?
So its really true, when someone made a remarks, many a times, that a lot of Christians are not following Christ because he believes, but becos its the trend and its hip. I can see this verily in the statement people made, when they readily condemn actions by their ancestors, whether its the beliefs their ancestors practised, or the fight against colonial power and such.
There is no reason for Buddhism to shift west and Christianity to shift east, but yet it does. It shows how readily the intellectual West adopt and adapt beliefs to aid their well being, and how Asians, up to today, readily receive crap and practise crap. We aped the west b4, and now we are aping it more than ever.
One of the most glaring example of such behaviour is how easily Christians and missionary schools brush off 'attending services as lan lan thing'. I thin kits time for them to wake up and smell the roses, thats the world doesnt belong to them alone.
As for Buddhist schools, i dont know why people in this forum like to bring in other religion, but never mind. Unlike Christian missionary schools, Buddhist school are not very secular. They do in the past include Buddhist studies and sutra chanting as part of the activities and syllabus. I checked with few who came from such schools, they DO exclude non Buddhists, to their choices, from such activities. Is there really bowing to Buddha statues? So far only honeybunz made such remarks. Together with Muslim madrasah, its only recently they are geared towards very secular syllabus and activities.
Christian missionary schools, as i had experienced once, are very much a mainstream schools, but i do believe there are few non mainstream non secular ones. Outside of services, the school is totally unChristian like in many aspects. -
I have never made a single remark abt harry potter in any of my post, except for this one....
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hey relac lah, no need argue so much, end up still nothing being done right?
Why not try to contact the authorities or media either directly or indirectly, and we'll see what happens. Our objective should be to stop such nonsense, not argue here and still nothing being done.
Have to highlight that such incident happened before and schools were told to stop the nonsense, but till now still happening. Need authorities to enforce what it did many years ago, AND A SYSTEM TO DO FOLLOW UP CHECK~!
Better to wait till school re-open and see what's the situation first.
Agreed?
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which only means you're out of topic?Originally posted by laurence82:I have never made a single remark abt harry potter in any of my post, except for this one.... -
you're refering to the mass thing or the book thing?Originally posted by Poopie-Head:hey relac lah, no need argue so much, end up still nothing being done right?
Why not try to contact the authorities or media either directly or indirectly, and we'll see what happens. Our objective should be to stop such nonsense, not argue here and still nothing being done.
Have to highlight that such incident happened before and schools were told to stop the nonsense, but till now still happening. Need authorities to enforce what it did many years ago, AND A SYSTEM TO DO FOLLOW UP CHECK~!
Better to wait till school re-open and see what's the situation first.
Agreed? -
still in topic..go figure..
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Bah! The authorities...Originally posted by Poopie-Head:hey relac lah, no need argue so much, end up still nothing being done right?
Why not try to contact the authorities or media either directly or indirectly, and we'll see what happens. Our objective should be to stop such nonsense, not argue here and still nothing being done.
Have to highlight that such incident happened before and schools were told to stop the nonsense, but till now still happening. Need authorities to enforce what it did many years ago, AND A SYSTEM TO DO FOLLOW UP CHECK~!
Better to wait till school re-open and see what's the situation first.
Agreed?..precisely after 3 4 decades of governance by the so called authorities that someone here actually insert the word 'lan lan' into their arguments....
and this is not even an army issue...
Actually when were the schools told to stop such nonsense? I was in JC 1999 and 2000, so i guess it gotta be after that?
I go ask my junior here whether they still do such things or not..