ST new 40mm Low Velocity ABM
-
And don't avoid the question lionnoisy, you tried to say that ST is alone or ahead in this field... how do you explain the FN2000 which is smart-grenade capable and in service with many nations, as well as the Stryker, which has been used in combat?
So where is ST ahead?
Nowhere.
It's just advertisting that you fell for and jumped into making another post without doing your homework.
-
How lionnoisy? Want more examples?
How about the Israeli IMI MPRS system?
At Eurosatory 2006 IMI is demonstrating the progress of its Multi-Purpose Rifle System (MPRS) with the new ORION customized sight, designed to provide a ready to use, improved lethality system, utilizing standard assault rifles, advanced 40mm air-burst grenades and standard 5.56mm ammunition. Since its first introduction in 2004 the system passed several important milestones. In the coming months it is scheduled to complete type classification for the Israel Defense Forces, supporting squad level weapon systems.
MPRS uses the new ORION customized fire control and sighting system providing navigation, target acquisition, ranging, ballistic computation, ammunition interface as well as day and night capability in a single, compact 600 gr system. The MPRS can be applied to most assault weapons such as Tavor, M4, SA80, INSAS, FAMAS or any other weapon using a standard Picatiny rail.
The IMI Air Burst Ammunition is configured as a rifle grenade, a 40mm grenade for M203/AG-36 and other grenade launchers, as well as in non-lethal and intelligence applications variants below.
Embedded in a C3 system based on IMI's Warrior Compact Targetor (WACT), MPRS facilitates advanced sensor to shooter capabilities for small task forces.
Airburst 40 mm ammunition
The MPRS enables warfighters to use IMI's new 40mm air-burst grenades, at high precision, facilitating an overhead, "around the corner" or "within a window" fire for effect. When associated with IMI's new time-fused, air-burst 40mm grenades, MPRS uses a built-in communications device to set the grenade's programmable fuze to explode the grenade at the required distance and height above the target or around a corner, to achieve the desired air-burst effect.
Reconnaissance Grenade (Over the Hill)
While the 40mm high explosive airburst grenade is primary ammunition for the MPRS, the system will also incorporate other munition types, including non lethal grenades and an expendable camera fitted to a reconnaissance grenade. The grenade is fired through a ballistic trajectory toward the target, transmitting images of the target through its descent. IMI is cooperating with Israel Aircraft Industries MLM division to develop a command and control system which will be based on MPRS elements and establish effective management and control of infantry units. The system will interface with the warfighter's fire control systems, day/night observation systems (such as binoculars and recce grenades) and personal role radios.
-
How about the Bulgarians?
ARCUS Co. Announces Unique 40mm Air-Burst Ammunition
ARCUS Co., the leading Bulgarian manufacturer of ammunition for 40mm grenade launchers, announces at the DSEi Exhibition the start of series production of its new product, the 40mmx46 air burst pre-fragmented ammunition for NATO-standard grenade launchers. The company is known as producer of 40x46mm low-velocity HE-pre-fragmented ammunition with self-destruction, anti-diver ammunition and others.
The unique 40mm NATO air burst prefragmented ammunition utilises the "bouncing" concept - when the grenade hits the ground the nose fuze initiates a pyrotechnic composition.
-
GDATP Receives $16 Million Contract for MK47 Striker 40mm Grenade Machine Gun
CHARLOTTE, N.C. – General Dynamics Armament and Technical Products [GDATP], a business unit of General Dynamics (NYSE: GD), has been awarded a $16 million firm-fixed-price contract from the U.S. government for production of the MK47 MOD 0 Weapon System. Called the "STRIKER40," the MK47 weapon system is a lightweight 40mm grenade launcher with an integrated fire control system capable of firing air-bursting ammunition.
The MK47's integrated gun and fire control system is significantly more accurate than any previously fielded grenade launcher. The MK47 weapon system is capable of firing programmable air-burst ammunition, as well as all conventional high-velocity 40mm ammunition in the U.S. inventory.
General Dynamics is partnered with Raytheon (Forest, Miss.) to build the Lightweight Video System (LVS) fire control, designed by General Dynamics Canada of Ottawa, Ontario. Program administration will be conducted at General Dynamics' Burlington, Vt., facility.
General Dynamics Armament and Technical Products provides a broad range of system solutions for military and commercial applications. The company designs, develops and produces high-performance armament systems; a full range of advanced composite-based products; biological and chemical detection systems; and mobile shelter systems. More information about General Dynamics Armament and Technical Products can be found on the World Wide Web at http://www.gdatp.com.
General Dynamics, headquartered in Falls Church, Virginia, employs approximately 68,400 people worldwide and expects 2004 revenue of $19 billion. The company is a market leader in mission-critical information systems and technologies; land and expeditionary combat systems, armaments and munitions; shipbuilding and marine systems; and business aviation.
-
Nothing to say now lionnoisy?
As expected.
Even if you do answer, are you going to answer to the fact that you tried to say that STK was unique or even first in the field of 40mm ABMs or are you going to avoid the question entirely and post another wall of text?
In either case, anybody reading the thread here can see how pwned you are, another case of "is there any UAV smaller then FANTAIL? i dunt think so!"
Here's a tip for your next post... do your homework.
-
Hi STy,
While i am doing very hard for home works,i get this info.
In 2006,USA awarded contract to foreign country,not ST,
to make programmable 40 mm grenades.Why Yankees had to
award foreign country to make?
FYI,i think ST had started making similiar grenades
on SG soil before 2006.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/85m-for-programmable-40mm-grenades-02579/#more-2579
$8.5M for Programmable 40mm Grenades
The US Naval Surface Warfare Center Crane Division in Crane, IN has awarded NAMMO Raufoss AS (Medium & Large Caliber Division) in Raufoss, Norway an $8.45 million firm-fixed-price contract for 39,776 rounds of MK 285 40mm programmable pre-fragmented, high explosive (PPHE) ammunition. The NAMMO AS 40mm PPHE cartridge utilizes an electronically programmable time fuze (Mk438), which has both point detonating and self-destruct functions. The programming allows the round to be fired from an automatic grenade launcher and detonate to hit targets hidden behind cover, on rooftops, behind corners, inside buildings or in trenches, etc. Work will be performed in Raufoss, Norway, and is expected to be complete by November 2007. The contract was not competitively procured (N00164-06-C-4879).
NAMMO was recently acquired by Patria Oyj of Finland, though it also remains partly owned by the Norwegian government. In addition to 40mm grenades, the firm also makes specialty sniper ammunition for US forces.
SSW
NAMMO.u can read from SSW thread that NAMMO,together with ST
and possibly with other co,also developing SSW products at prototype
stage,if not production stage..
-
Yawn lionnoisy, you took so long to come up with such a weak reply?
You have no answered my question at all. You said you have been doing your homework so how come you have no examples to offer?
Can you say anything about what I showed you about what the Germans, Israelis, Americans and other nations did in this field?
You tried to paint the picture of STK and Singapore being the first in the field of ABMs, as I have shown, this is simply not true.
What's so strange about the Yanks contracting some other nation to do that? If they can do it with the JSF which is a multibillion project, what's a few 40mm ABMs?
It's only your warped idea of nationalism that sees any distinction in there.
A weapon's a weapon my noisy feline forumer, the only difference is which weapon is better then the other.
Is ST's 40mm ABM grenade better then other?
Nope, they don't have FAE effects, and they certainly do not have the engagement capacity of the next generation rounds that are currently being developed.
So what is your case? Except to not answer the main question being asked and keep trying to ask more.
Answer this:
Is STK the first, or even ahead in the field of ABM?
In that case what's so special about what STK is doing?
Nothing.
I have nothing against ST making ABMs, and as a soldier it is something I would like to have given I've fired 40mm grenades before. But I am not going to claim it as anything special or world-first given others have come up with the idea long before ST, or are working on better concepts.
The bullets I fire from my SAR are manufactured locally, but you don't see me going around saying it's special or asking why the US army contracted some other country to help them manufacture SLAP rounds or something like that.
For the simple reason there is nothing special or unique about our ABMs, except that they are locally made. But they don't give our soldier any more abilities then say an Israeli ABM and are even inferior to some of the 40mm the Yanks use currently that can wipe out an entire room and certainly very much inferior to the next generation smart munition concepts.
You can argue till you're blue or keep posting irrelevant posts, but that is not going to change, and the people here are smart enough to see through your wall of text to see that beyond firing 20 rounds in your army life, you know next to nothing about anything military.
Your posts are that of a person with a political agenda, not a person who truly cares about soldiering at all. Military ability to you, is just a tool for you to boast about our country and condesend to others, putting a stain onto its real purpose which is to protect what we hold dear. The soldiers and equipment of the SAF is just a pawn for you to use in your game of political singapore-bolehness.
In short, you are a disgrace to all that the true soldiers in the SAF stand for.
-
FYI,i think ST had started making similiar grenades
on SG soil before 2006.
FYI, RWM Schweiz AG of Rhienmetall already got the concept working over a decade ago, long before ST even came up with anything.
So what's so special about ST?
Nothing.
Another case of you tooting horns for no reason.
-
SSW
NAMMO.u can read from SSW thread that NAMMO,together with ST
and possibly with other co,also developing SSW products at prototype
stage,if not production stage..
The Israeli MPRS is already working and the concept is sound and proven, not to mention they save a lot of money and time by using their TAR-21 (which is a generally superior infantry weapon to the SAR-21) as a base.
Our SSW can truly be considered to be in production when we see our grunts carry and use it in the field. Not all our soldiers have recieved the SAR-21 or the SAR-21 M203, what makes you think such a specialist weapon like the SSW is anything but years away from even being issued?
-
Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:
And don't avoid the question lionnoisy, you tried to say that ST is alone or ahead in this field... how do you explain the FN2000 which is smart-grenade capable and in service with many nations, as well as the Stryker, which has been used in combat?
So where is ST ahead?
Nowhere.
It's just advertisting that you fell for and jumped into making another post without doing your homework.
oh, pls give him a break! -
Originally posted by FG42:
oh, pls give him a break!
Well he could give himself a break by actually using some basic, decent common sense before he tries to post in here. Is it any surprise that he always gets mauled?What other results can come from the following ideas:
1. Use Fantail UAV crash into targets, repeated claims of Fantail as the smallest UAV in the world (untrue).
2. Launching F-18s off Landing Helicopter Dock Ships
3. Despite only having fired 20 rounds in his NS, he somehow tries to tell infantrymen in here that carrying the SAR-21 in one hand by scope handle as an extremely important combat tactic when "running for your life", leaving soldiers completely defenceless and unbalanced.
The real reason it seemed that lionnoisy was so insistent on it was simply because a scope handle was a feature the TAR-21 did not have but the SAR-21 did, and hence wanted to play it up even if it made no sense after realizing that the TAR-21 is practically a superior infantry weapon in almost every respect... which is not surprising given the TAR-21 is a more expensive weapon built to higher standards by the Israelis. But lionnoisy just can't accept it however.
4. Arguing that 200 ton blast rated Mandai Underground Ammunition Facility on par with Cheyenne Mountains' massive multimegaton nuclear bunker.
5. Repeatedly arguing that the Australian navy must somehow have a ship to guard each and every single mile of their 18,000 km coast as well as vast Ocean, leaving out the fact that not even the USN is capable of such a feat.
6. Claiming that a large and slow, 76m/s 40mm round is the way to go given people are looking for a better, faster and lighter solution. Apparently this is not because the 40mm is better, but simply because Singapore happens to make a lot of it and lionnoisy just cannot help but see the need to "boost" its reputation.
He does so by claiming that our locally manufactured rounds are capable of amazing feats like disabling AFV vision at extreme range and what have you not, as well as claiming that Singapore is at the frontier of developing and manufacturing smart, air bursting munitions when this is not even true given the concept is hardly new, and that other nations have developed it before we did.
Also note that some of the ST inventions he is so hot about actually use AUSTRALIAN technology, namely in the stacked grenade launcher, but he is quiet about that for some reason and tries not to play up that part.
7. Proposing the use of inline skates for our infantrymen to save fuel and gain battlefield mobility, when contradicted by experienced soldiers in here he tried repeatedly to defend his idea without adressing any of their points, as usual going about his routine of not answering the glaring holes pointed out in his theories and to keep on raising new and useless questions.
And the best one:
8: Creating a clone to support himself when he could not win in virtually all his arguments, when exposed he panicked, went crazy and started making bizzare excuses about how his account was hacked before dissappearing for a few days.
But as time has shown, he is a person that just does not learn from his mistakes, as eventually the itch will build up enough that he will just have to post something.
So tell me, not say people don't want to give him a break, he is the one that can't give himself a break and keeps pwning himself with his ineffective and dishonest behavior in here.
If he had any common sense, he can be a bit more humble and realize that Singapore's Military is not the best is alot of things and admit our limitations, but unfortunately that is utterly unthinkable to him.
To him the SAF is just another tool to further his rah-rah about Singapore, which is actually a real disgrace to the people who have done the SAF proud.
So you tell me, give this guy a break from what? His actions are a joke and against everything a real soldier stands for. There is no honour, intergity and courage in his behaviour in here.
-
sgt rex your last post were much better...because your previous post become more and more look like lion post ...and i meant the way it looks (your argumen were great).
may be you should detached your self from lion for a while mate. lol
-
disengage! trex! disengage! spare yourself the agony! lols
lets focus more on the ideas lar... lionnoisy, also can stop starting your posts on a newsreport or smth? cos dont really see you having any particular point in doing so...
gah. i dont make sense
-
I don't know how you people can come up with such a long post to rebut.
I usually just read and laugh.
-
Originally posted by tankfanatic:
sgt rex your last post were much better...because your previous post become more and more look like lion post ...and i meant the way it looks (your argumen were great).
Lol, if you didn't realize sometimes my posts are made to look like lionnoisy's for the simple reason I wanted to make the posts so simple that he cannot help but to understand it and have to answer.Also, there is this person called "noisylion" that will answer to some of his more nonsense posts.
-
I too had a long laugh
-
SG is the largest 40 mm grenades maker in the world
Who are the buyers,besides SAF and UK?
http://investor.metalstorm.com.au/irm/Company/ShowPage.aspx?CPID=1562
This interview gives u interesting info.
corporatefile.com.au
In February you signed a Joint Collaboration Agreement with Singapore
Technologies Kinetics (STK) and at your AGM in May you said you couldn’t
over-emphasise the importance of this agreement to Metal Storm. What is the
strategic rationale behind the agreement and why is it so important to the
company?
CEO Dr. Lee Finniear
Our overall objective is to deliver commercial quantities of qualified weapons and
ammunition to armed forces in markets around the world. STK is the largest 40
mm calibre manufacturer in the world. It’s able to take our weapons and
ammunition through qualification, set up volume production lines, and use its
marketing and distribution network to sell our products in its established
international markets. STK sees our technology as having significant potential in
the market, while we see STK as a partner that will enable us to deliver our
technology’s potential. -
Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:
I would like to have given I've fired 40mm grenades before. But they don't give our soldier any more abilities then say an Israeli ABM and are even inferior to some of the 40mm the Yanks use currently that can wipe out an entire room and certainly very much inferior to the next generation smart munition concepts.
Is ST's 40mm ABM grenade better then other?
Nope, they don't have FAE effects, and they certainly do not have the engagement capacity of the next generation rounds that are currently being developed.
T-rex - I know that lionnoisy need to be shot !!! But please do not go overboard on somethings.
I must disagree with some unfair statement that you make. - you say ours is inferior to "some yanks 40mm" , that is because you did not match the effect of the same type of round use .... if you select the right type of 40mm rounds - it will take out the whole room !!!
You shoot 40mm as a soldier - what type of rounds are you issued ? Did you shot every type of round we ever make ? What type of target you shoot at ? Was the target in open area ? did you ever shoot a real grenade into a real room to see the effect - to be able to say ours is not as effective as US round ? Now I am interested in what type of US 40mm round is that - what so special about it - that we did not have something similar - and that it perform better ? it have more fragments or explosive - or maybe the label was "make in US" add more effect ? Think in your eagerness to put lionnoisy down, you have went overboard.As for your view of the capabilities of comparing 40mm to next generation of round is very subjective on engagement capacity. Frankly they are very different things that are no suppose to be compared !!! Those new generation rounds like - 20mm rounds - the concentration is speed on launch - for the penetration power, it shoot straight and fast and penetrate more like your tank rounds. But think of the 40mm may not look great - but it is your personal motar rounds- with more payload in explosive & framents, each round radius of destruction is higher.
Thus it is 40mm will still stay on with infrantry even though get fancy smaller tank round like projectiles - but the need for infranty personal artiliary will stay. You cannot compare them, as it will be like comparing armour to artilliary.
-
I must disagree with some unfair statement that you make. - you say ours is inferior to "some yanks 40mm" , that is because you did not match the effect of the same type of round use .... if you select the right type of 40mm rounds - it will take out the whole room !!!
You shoot 40mm as a soldier - what type of rounds are you issued ? Did you shot every type of round we ever make ? What type of target you shoot at ? Was the target in open area ? did you ever shoot a real grenade into a real room to see the effect - to be able to say ours is not as effective as US round ? Now I am interested in what type of US 40mm round is that - what so special about it - that we did not have something similar - and that it perform better ? it have more fragments or explosive - or maybe the label was "make in US" add more effect ? Think in your eagerness to put lionnoisy down, you have went overboard.I've shot HEDP, when I entered they phased out HE 40mm grenades in favour of implementing the utilization of HEDP rounds SAF-wide for logistical purposes.
The SAF uses HEDP for the hand-held launchers and our AGL. Unless we are in practice using 40mm thermobaric warheads there is no way our 40mm grenades will match the killing power of the Yank XM1060 grenade which is massively more powerful.
And in thermobaric effects will outperform a normal HEDP anyday without problem.
The closest thing we probably have is the 40mm EBX thermobaric grenade, but last I checked that hasn't reached distribution in our grunts yet.
As I would like to point out, ST manufactures a lot of stuff it seems, but it seems that a lot of the stuff does not make it into the arsenal of the SAF, but is marketed to other countries instead.
As for your view of the capabilities of comparing 40mm to next generation of round is very subjective on engagement capacity. Frankly they are very different things that are no suppose to be compared !!! Those new generation rounds like - 20mm rounds - the concentration is speed on launch - for the penetration power, it shoot straight and fast and penetrate more like your tank rounds. But think of the 40mm may not look great - but it is your personal motar rounds- with more payload in explosive & framents, each round radius of destruction is higher.
I think you are mixing up the new format 20/25m grenades for autocannon rounds of the same caliber. They are quite different.
Firstly the new format rounds travel slower (though still much faster then the old 40mm), and their main effect is not in penetration but in smart airbust effects, allowing it to reach behind and over cover for effects on personnel. Though that is only one type of round.
Due to its higher engagement speed, longer range, as well as ability to carry more rounds and engage in a greater envelope then the old 40mm, the new format grenades are quite a lot deadiler.
AFAIK, the 40mm isn't a personal grenade, we are forced to use it in indirect mode because of it's extremely slow speed and lobbing flight path, what an infantryman needs is a grenade that will behave more like his rifle round then a mortar.
-
SG is the largest 40 mm grenades maker in the world
http://investor.metalstorm.com.au/irm/Company/ShowPage.aspx?CPID=1562
And what is so remarkable about that?
What I find remarkable is that ST, despite all the "advanced technology" you claimed, is actually working with Australia's metalstorm to adapt their ammunition to their technology.
ST can't make it's own metalstorm systems? Can you answer that?
-
Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:
And what is so remarkable about that?
What I find remarkable is that ST, despite all the "advanced technology" you claimed, is actually working with Australia's metalstorm to adapt their ammunition to their technology.
ST can't make it's own metalstorm systems? Can you answer that?
T-Rex - your comments is totally out of line !!!
What happen is that Australia's metalstorm have patent their ideal, I do not see what wrong with ST -working in partnership and adopting the technology !So US did not make its own metalstorm systems- so does that mean US defense industry is not remarkable ?
You mean everything must be invented from scratch, re-invent the wheel that to be consider remarkable.
For a small defense company from singapore -to become the largest manufacturer of 40mm rounds - why is that no consider remarkable ?
-
Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:
I've shot HEDP, when I entered they phased out HE 40mm grenades in favour of implementing the utilization of HEDP rounds SAF-wide for logistical purposes.
The SAF uses HEDP for the hand-held launchers and our AGL. Unless we are in practice using 40mm thermobaric warheads there is no way our 40mm grenades will match the killing power of the Yank XM1060 grenade which is massively more powerful.
And in thermobaric effects will outperform a normal HEDP anyday without problem.
The closest thing we probably have is the 40mm EBX thermobaric grenade, but last I checked that hasn't reached distribution in our grunts yet.
As I would like to point out, ST manufactures a lot of stuff it seems, but it seems that a lot of the stuff does not make it into the arsenal of the SAF, but is marketed to other countries instead.
I think you are mixing up the new format 20/25m grenades for autocannon rounds of the same caliber. They are quite different.
Firstly the new format rounds travel slower (though still much faster then the old 40mm), and their main effect is not in penetration but in smart airbust effects, allowing it to reach behind and over cover for effects on personnel. Though that is only one type of round.
Due to its higher engagement speed, longer range, as well as ability to carry more rounds and engage in a greater envelope then the old 40mm, the new format grenades are quite a lot deadiler.
AFAIK, the 40mm isn't a personal grenade, we are forced to use it in indirect mode because of it's extremely slow speed and lobbing flight path, what an infantryman needs is a grenade that will behave more like his rifle round then a mortar.
http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=763
Enhanced-Blast/Thermobaric Weapons - creates an intense overpressure wave/blast and distributes a combustable agent in either aerosol or gel, then ignites it, creating a giant fireball that consumes all of the oxygen in the area, which creates a deep vacuum. The big push now is for thermobaric/enhanced-blast munitions that incorporate a penetrative capability so it will first penetrate a structure/material and then deflagrate behind it, neutralizing anyone inside. Thermobaric/enhanced-blast weapons work best inside enclosed spaces.
XM1060 40mm - US & ST EBX thermobaric 40mm are using the same technology. They are the same thing, just that we name it differently. That is why i am saying you are unfair to jump right in and say - the US have more advance round which ST does not !
Just because you never use it, and it is not issue to general troops, is still unfair for you to make that comments, even in US think most troops also are also not issue with XM1060 rounds.
Good i am waiting for you to talk about 20mm air burst grenade - advantage - higher engagement speed, longer range, as well as ability to carry more rounds ? Well think that is very subjective.Let compare - speed 20mm vs 40mm - how much faster 0.1 sec ? I am happy with 40mm delivery speed. If ability to go 0.01 - 0.03 sec faster ... it is just better to have.
Let compare - range 20mm vs 40mm - ? vs 400m. Most of 40mm are 400m, I am happy with 400m. If further of course would be good. But it is hard to say 20mm has longer range. Please note that South African designers of the Milkor MGL ("M32MGL" in U.S. service) developed a new "Extended Range Low Pressure" (ERLP) 40x51mm cartridge. This round extends the range of the 40 mm grenade from 400m (440yd) to 800m (880yd).
Let compare - payload 20mm vs 40mm - 20mm would just have max of about 1/3 the payload (explosive & fragments) of 40mm. That would make 40mm having a more lethal airburst radius due to more explosive & fragments delivery in one round. But then with faster speed, you can delivery 2-3 20mm to delivery the same payload.Frankly 20mm vs 40mm - it is just a matter of preference - it be like comparing 5.56 round vs 7.62 rounds.
-
Just because you never use it, and it is not issue to general troops, is still unfair for you to make that comments, even in US think most troops also are also not issue with XM1060 rounds.
Erm untrue, the round has been used in Afganistan to clear caves.
This is not so much an issue of testing a limited-production round an actually an attempt to introduce the new round into service. And they certainly intend to.
Can't say the same for our SAR 21 M203, which is supposed to be the basic bread and butter of our infantry forces, as well as the current lack of proper sighting options for even our basic SAR, despite the fact we have a solution all the while.
For a modern military force that has a arms company specifically tailored for its needs this is somewhat disturbing.
Good i am waiting for you to talk about 20mm air burst grenade - advantage - higher engagement speed, longer range, as well as ability to carry more rounds ? Well think that is very subjective.
Let compare - speed 20mm vs 40mm - how much faster 0.1 sec ? I am happy with 40mm delivery speed. If ability to go 0.01 - 0.03 sec faster ... it is just better to have.
Are you sure it's just 0.1 sec?
The new format grenades have a muzzle velocity on average of 185-200mps versus the average of 77-80mps that the 40mm grenade manages.
What this means that the new rounds are nearly 200-250 percent faster then the old rounds. And this will pay off significantly at longer ranges when the round takes less time to arrive on target. If you are firing at targets at maximum range (400 meters), this works out to a 2-3 second difference.
And of course in terms of precision at range, the 25mm keeps much smaller groups as well.
And of course as it turns out the new rounds can engage further then that. In fact their pk remains good for point targets out to 500 meters, and area to 1000 meters. That's an over 200 percent increase in performance.
More importantly this means that the new rounds do not need to be lobbed anywhere near as much as the old rounds, vastly improving their pk on targets. Good estimation of range becomes much less of an issue with the new rounds.
All this pays off a lot in a firefight.
Let compare - range 20mm vs 40mm - ? vs 400m. Most of 40mm are 400m, I am happy with 400m. If further of course would be good. But it is hard to say 20mm has longer range. Please note that South African designers of the Milkor MGL ("M32MGL" in U.S. service) developed a new "Extended Range Low Pressure" (ERLP) 40x51mm cartridge. This round extends the range of the 40 mm grenade from 400m (440yd) to 800m (880yd).
Let compare - payload 20mm vs 40mm - 20mm would just have max of about 1/3 the payload (explosive & fragments) of 40mm. That would make 40mm having a more lethal airburst radius due to more explosive & fragments delivery in one round. But then with faster speed, you can delivery 2-3 20mm to delivery the same payload.Frankly 20mm vs 40mm - it is just a matter of preference - it be like comparing 5.56 round vs 7.62 rounds.
Erm the 20/25mm round is good on point targets (window, door) up to 500 meters, where the 40mm is little more then an area weapon, and effective up to 1000 meters on area targets! This is a significant improvement over the 40mm grenade, and not a matter of compromise like the issue of 5.56mm vs 7.62mm.
The thing is, it's not about how much explosives you mail your target as to how well you can place it. A single 25mm will kill targets hiding behind a wall as good as the 40mm, and in fact it's easier use and increased engagement envelope will increase it's pk against targets that are hard to reach. This means that despite carrying less explosive, it is actually deadiler.
In any case the lethal radius of both rounds are similar at 5 meters, but the 25mm can engage in a much larger envelope offering more opportunities to the user. These two rounds are certainly not tradeoffs of each other, in the bare tactical sense, the 25mm is the superior grenade.
In fact the only thing that can be said about the 25mm is that is packs less explosives, but if you ask me the tradeoff in performance is more then worth it. The 25mm round is a whole new generation ahead of the 40mm, this is not 5.56mm vs 7.62mm, it's quite different.
If it was the same then you're talking about a 5.56mm round that has much greater range and precision then the 7.62mm, as well as packing almost the same stopping power.
-
In other words, the 40mm can only start to contest an enemy at 400 meters, while the 25mm can contest it out further to 1000 meters. At 400 meters the 40mm grenade is only good for area roles while the 25mm grenade is still good for point targets. This mean that squad support treams can engage enemy targets at a safer distance as well as provide supportive fire in a larger degree of environments.
But this is not all. Using bare calculations we know that a 40mm rounds with a 77mps muzzle velocity takes 5 seconds to reach its target at 400 meters. However, we must also realize that using it at 400 meters requires firing it as indirect fire with an extremely high flight arc, which means the round actually has to travel more then 400 meters to reach its target, this means that the round will take LONGER then 5 seconds to cover this distance.
Firing any 40-mm grenade launcher round in the indirect-fire role doubles the time required for the round to reach the target. This allows wind, snow, and rain twice the time to push the projectile off its normal trajectory. Before firing, you must evaluate and compensate for the wind, whether it is a crosswind or whether it is blowing on the same axis as the grenade. This evaluation (referred to as "Kentucky windage") increases the chance of a first-round hit and reduces the chance that a round will impact closer to you than desired. Be careful when a wind of S mph or more is blowing from the direction of the target. Consider this particular wind condition when firing at all ranges, but remember that it presents the greatest danger at the minimum indirect fire range of 200 meters.
This is opposed to the much faster 20/25mm grenades, require less arcing in order to cover these ranges. This means that they are not only a lot easier to use, but the rounds are far more precise at those ranges as well as giving the enemy less time to react or move out of danger.
This weakeness of 40mm grenades has been long known, that's why alternatives are being sought after that will offer better and more consistent performances.
And this still plays out even at shorter ranges. At the end of the day there's only so much you can do with a first-generation format 77mps round that was introduced Vietnam era.
-
In short, it's not so much how much explosives you can pack into your round as to how capable your round is at moving that explosive to your target. You can have a 40mm grenade that packs a lot of explosives but it's "mailing" options are limited or you can give that same amount of explosives in several smaller, but much more capable packages.
Personally I'll go for the smaller format once it's perfected.
And of course, there are only so many 40mm grenades you can carry as opposed to twice the amount with the new format, not to mention things like rate of fire, sustained fire, engagement envelope, precision are superior to the old 40mm. This means that a unit using the new format will be significantly more effective then a similar unit using the old format.
So to end off, I don't know why lionnoisy is so desperate to put down the new format as something unworkable that will never come out for "tomorrow's war" except that fact that it will threaten the 40mm market that ST is heavily invested in, given it is so much more effective that what ST has come out with.
Somehow the idea that ST will not eventually retool to make the new format once it's established is did not occur to him.
In short, it seems that lionnoisy reminds me of a certain kind of video game player that puts down other video games that are not his favourite not because they are bad video games, but simply because they threaten the popularity of his favourite game.