Originally posted by skythewood:you want to go, go ahead. I not the internet police.
Can't you make your post more user friendly? Even the Ah Chia agreed by reposting your post. and he is also a wall of text enthusiast, so you should understand how bad that was.
if you're an undergrad/graduate as you claimed to be and still find the posting a user-unfriendly wall of text, then i really pity your parents; they had wasted their money sending you to the varsity!
Originally posted by soul_rage:You know speakup
And you still do not understand what Bill Gates is doing. It's NOT social obligation. It tells me how myopic your views are. It's his calling to put his wealth into good use for the benefit of mankind, NOT because he thinks he's obliged to, but because he believes in what he is doing. Please don't insult Bill Gates, like how you insult all of us. Just coz you don't have a gracious spirit doesn't mean others cannot have a higher calling.
There is nothing wrong with what I am comparing. You say there is no such thing as higher calling. I merely tell you that there are volunteers who believe in higher calling. I did not compare them to whether it is a job or not. Again, you are losing your bearings.
Anyway, I am too lazy to address your other views coz you just go round and round the same old poisoned thoughts. Not to mention you can't even answer why you think a govt with a focus on higher calling will fail. You just conveniently hide and delude yourself
What makes you think that it must be that one makes sense, and the other perspective does not make sense? It could be that both perspective make sense, just that again, you are poisoned with the "0" or "1" extreme views that MM Lee has. "It's either you vote for PAP, or Singapore will collapse"
You can continue, but you still cannot give a good reason why you think their pay is acceptable. You cannot even give examples of mindblowing ideas that our leaders have implemented that justifies how good they are.
Again, you are nothing but a product of propaganda, because you can't even say why you think they are good, except that MM Lee tells you so. They got the job done? Tell us which part?
And between paying $2,000,000.00 and $400,000.00 (market rate) to get the same amount of work done, I will choose the latter. Why? Coz the 1,600,000.00 can be better used to help the lower income group.
While i can understand where you're coming from, i still think it's rather naive or unrealistic to believe public offices would be filled with people who has intentions of social obligations who would not care much about salaries.
I do not think that it is the person who is corrupt, but the power and authority that the position holds itself is corrupting. You may feel you would act differently in that position, but i retain my belief that you would behave differently when you get a taste of the power ( And the hidden "responsibilities").
So i would agree with that ministerial salaries should be high, even above other global politicians' equivalent. At least it would discourage corporations from being able to bribe them to do things beneficial to the corporation but bad for the citizens.
I can see what the PAP (and most probably LKY) is trying to do with Temasek and the GICs. Rather than allow a foreign bank or corporation to bribe the politicians into doing things for them the government (PAP and LKY) would provide that bribe.
I don't like having to arrive at this conclusion, i find it distasteful to the extreme but at the very least i see the reasoning.
However, i would disagree in the increasing number of redundant senior positions. Why the hell do we need so much Ministers of State and Senior Ministers for? Why is a Minister Mentor position with no direct responsibilities commanding equivalent salary with the President?
If they are indeed so good wouldn't it made sense to release more of them into the private sector to spurn growth instead of leaving them clogging the pipelines and creating an extremely bloated bureacracy ?
With the Internet and Globalisation, knowledge and information is growing at a rate never seen before. What these ministers initially scored high marks for in their youth might even be horribly wrong conclusions in the first place. The same way how so much of the theories and mathematical formulas prominient Economists have lauded as undeniable have crashed and burned in the recent Depression.
Identifying talents when they are young in their schools might have worked when Singapore is building itself up.
But furthur researchs into how the human brain perceive information and knowledge have proven that such conceptions result in a self fulfilling prophecy. (Since you've decided the individual is ministerial material, you intentionally give him/her more access to material and experience so that in the end they would naturally make good ministers, or at least the illusion that they know their job)
It's the same as in the Army, where men are judged to be Officers or Specialists out of BMT (Though i heard this has changed somewhat). In the end you get clueless officers who frankly couldn't lead anyone but still get promotions and better salaries by virtue of their original training.
What LKY original developed as a strategy worked wonderfully for Singapore the first few decades of his career. But it is my opinion that he has started to believe his philosophy to the extent of a religion where Faith trumps Proof.
Too sleepy to respond in length to both of you (Speakup and Stevenson101), but I appreciate the debate that is going on between us here.
We may have disagreements but it's fine. I just want to summarize a few things here:
Either way, continue discussion tomorrow
Originally posted by Stevenson101:I do not think that it is the person who is corrupt, but the power and authority that the position holds itself is corrupting. You may feel you would act differently in that position, but i retain my belief that you would behave differently when you get a taste of the power ( And the hidden "responsibilities").
So i would agree with that ministerial salaries should be high, even above other global politicians' equivalent. At least it would discourage corporations from being able to bribe them to do things beneficial to the corporation but bad for the citizens.
I can see what the PAP (and most probably LKY) is trying to do with Temasek and the GICs. Rather than allow a foreign bank or corporation to bribe the politicians into doing things for them the government (PAP and LKY) would provide that bribe.
I don't like having to arrive at this conclusion, i find it distasteful to the extreme but at the very least i see the reasoning.
Greed knows no limits. Who dare to check on their accounts? You need evidences. Where to get evidences? It's on their side. So how do we know there is corruption or not? It may be going on a long time ago like NKF (which is reported by public, remember MP Khaw & SM's wife stand on the side of Durian) etc. Even if PAP found corruption among their members, would they report it out? If they report it, that mean "high pay prevent corruption " would be invalid. So do you think they will risk reporting it out? Some may laugh at other countries (taiwan president etc) for being corrupted but remember they manage to catch the culprit . For us, we may never know the truths.
Originally posted by starExcaliblur:
Just a thought: If you are paid high salaries for being a leader, then what is going to stop you from accepting bribes ( which is more $$$ ) from corporations to do their bidding? Integrity? conscience? If you had those, then why are you accepting huge amounts of money as salary for your post?
Fear. You would be afraid of losing your high-paying job. In short, your 'integrity' is there because being corrupted has higher risks. In short, it also means that the PAP is using $$$ to buy loyalty and integrity. They no longer believe in morals. They believe that $$$ is king. Nothing else can keep a person except for $$$.
The precise reason why I said that they are a negative example to the younger generation, that $$$ is everything, and morals are non-existent in their world of thought.
Don't scream and shout the next time you see old people standing in the trains, people pretending to fall asleep. Rude and obnoxious drivers on the roads, etc.
Because there is no $$$ for being polite, no $$$ for giving way to old people, what is in it for a person to be gracious, since our leaders tell us that $$$ is all we should think about?
Even while I am writing this, you already can see many pro-govt supporters in this thread thinking of things only in $$$ terms. Indeed it's poisoning of the mind.
Originally posted by soul_rage:Fear. You would be afraid of losing your high-paying job. In short, your 'integrity' is there because being corrupted has higher risks. In short, it also means that the PAP is using $$$ to buy loyalty and integrity. They no longer believe in morals. They believe that $$$ is king. Nothing else can keep a person except for $$$.
The precise reason why I said that they are a negative example to the younger generation, that $$$ is everything, and morals are non-existent in their world of thought.
Don't scream and shout the next time you see old people standing in the trains, people pretending to fall asleep. Rude and obnoxious drivers on the roads, etc.
Because there is no $$$ for being polite, no $$$ for giving way to old people, what is in it for a person to be gracious, since our leaders tell us that $$$ is all we should think about?
Even while I am writing this, you already can see many pro-govt supporters in this thread thinking of things only in $$$ terms. Indeed it's poisoning of the mind.
Uncle, too bad you pok kai one, so no money, dun talk so much,,,those with money one, their words also carry weights, you po kai eat cha mee hoon one, diam diam lah.
woei! uncle, yr cha bee hoon want to add taokua or not??
Originally posted by starExcaliblur:
Just a thought: If you are paid high salaries for being a leader, then what is going to stop you from accepting bribes ( which is more $$$ ) from corporations to do their bidding? Integrity? conscience? If you had those, then why are you accepting huge amounts of money as salary for your post?
I think soul_rage has answered your question.
If i am earning a cool 1.94 (Minister) million per year (140k+ per month), i am discouraged from dealing in shady dealings because that would be stupid. There is a chance i might get discovered and lose everything whereas if i just engage in safe transactions and sit on my ass looking important at every meeting i still earn more than most Singaporeans earn in a year, perhaps even in a decade if you include bonuses and pensions.
I have read a bit on how foreign banks and corporations screwed around with the policies of our surrounding neighbours (Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Thailand, Indonesia). So yes, i see the reason why Singapore is able to be relatively free of foreign influence, trading foreign tyrants for local ones.
While i see the reasoning in this, i do not see the need to create so much positions that make little sense (Minister of State, Senior Minister, Minister Mentor). We simply cannot afford to keep so much "Ministers" on payroll to the point where they die or retire.
I think we've already pretty much hit past 100 million on their salary annually. Ministers should serve a maximum amount of years then be given a forced retirement to the private sectors.
Granted, there is the possibility they might take one big bribe for that last burst of glory. But how long can the country itself keep this up ? I see the number of ministers and redundant positions increasing not decreasing.
Originally posted by Stevenson101:
I think soul_rage has answered your question.
If u are paid millions, why is there a need to take a risk of accepting a few hundred thousands. Beside Ministry jobs, a MP is also businessman of his/her own profession.
Originally posted by angel7030:
Uncle, too bad you pok kai one, so no money, dun talk so much,,,those with money one, their words also carry weights, you po kai eat cha mee hoon one, diam diam lah.
that's true. I think the entire population against them, all of us pok kai no money. After all, what we earn, they earn in one day.
Better go eat my mee siam mai hum as well.
Originally posted by angel7030:
Uncle, too bad you pok kai one, so no money, dun talk so much,,,those with money one, their words also carry weights, you po kai eat cha mee hoon one, diam diam lah.
dun play play
Pple earning 5 figures one hor
Is eat crab bee hoon from Ritz Carlton one hor
Originally posted by soul_rage:that's true. I think the entire population against them, all of us pok kai no money. After all, what we earn, they earn in one day.
Better go eat my mee siam mai hum as well.
Dr Mahatir paid was said to be $4000 US dollars per month, that is about 6500 sing dollars. An average manager paid here, who still need to struggle to take care of family, cars and housing.
But how earth can he hold acres of lands in malaysia, how on earth can he owns buildings and a big share in part of Petronas????
i think they make a big mistake in the chart... the top ten should be all belong to our pappies
Originally posted by eagle:dun play play
Pple earning 5 figures one hor
Is eat crab bee hoon from Ritz Carlton one hor
so what?
I earn 5 figure one month
Our leaders earn 5 figure in one day
She's right. I should go eat my mee siam mai hum. After all, 90% of Singapore's population are pok kai, no money, when compared to them.
It's all relative, mate.
Originally posted by eagle:dun play play
Pple earning 5 figures one hor
Is eat crab bee hoon from Ritz Carlton one hor
huh! oh ya hor, eat chatter box chicken rice at the chattering Mandarin hotel hor. Chay, my Uncle was offer a job to collect plate at mandarin he also turn it down, he dun wan to work in a place control by dogs...he is just sick of this society that never understand him. I really pity him, really....so what if 5 figures, many here also earn 5 figures and still struggling.
Originally posted by angel7030:
Dr Mahatir paid was said to be $4000 US dollars per month, that is about 6500 sing dollars. An average manager paid here, who still need to struggle to take care of family, cars and housing.
But how earth can he hold acres of lands in malaysia, how on earth can he owns buildings and a big share in part of Petronas????
Stop your extreme comparisons. Whoever said they should be paid US$4000 a month? That's a problem with you again, only 1 and 0. If we say paying them millions (1) is too high, you start a comparison of paying them thousands (0). That's why I said you cannot be a consultant, coz your brains run only in a standard direction, and you cannot offer any creative solutions.
Originally posted by angel7030:
huh! oh ya hor, eat chatter box chicken rice at the chattering Mandarin hotel hor. Chay, my Uncle was offer a job to collect plate at mandarin he also turn it down, he dun wan to work in a place control by dogs...he is just sick of this society that never understand him. I really pity him, really....so what if 5 figures, many here also earn 5 figures and still struggling.
so everyone is struggling, and you agree then that our economic progress is not equating to the individual's progress?
By the way, I don't eat Chatterbox Chicken Rice, there are much better (and more affordable) options. And I am a true blue Singaporean brought up the PAP way. Cheap and good. Cheap more impt than good. Good is optional. But this doesn't apply to their pay. They are Expensive and Good. Expensive more impt than good. Good is optional and subjective.
Originally posted by soul_rage:so everyone is struggling, and you agree then that our economic progress is not equating to the individual's progress?
By the way, I don't eat Chatterbox Chicken Rice, there are much better (and more affordable) options. And I am a true blue Singaporean brought up the PAP way. Cheap and good. Cheap more impt than good. Good is optional. But this doesn't apply to their pay. They are Expensive and Good. Expensive more impt than good. Good is optional and subjective.
Well, Everyone is born to struggle, from the begining, you start crying, nobody is born here laughing, siao liao. And from that moment u start to struggle for milk, sweets, foods and then when get older, you struggle for love, sex, education and fun...then, as an adult, you struggle with money, work, social, politic, mindset and more sex. Till the day you die, you still worry about whether your money is save or that PAP is still the govt or not? O c'mon lah, cool it Uncle.
Since you hv better Chicken Rice to eat than chattering box, why are you still oppose a govt that in one way or the other provide you the oppportunity to eat a good chicken rice??? Be contended ya.
Economic progress is always peg to a country progress and therefore an individual progress..last time GDP contribute to individual paid and bonuses, today, with a negative GDP on the horizontal, people accepted pay cuts and wage freeze.
Originally posted by soul_rage:Stop your extreme comparisons. Whoever said they should be paid US$4000 a month? That's a problem with you again, only 1 and 0. If we say paying them millions (1) is too high, you start a comparison of paying them thousands (0). That's why I said you cannot be a consultant, coz your brains run only in a standard direction, and you cannot offer any creative solutions.
When Tony Tan was CEO of OCBC, his paid was much much higher than his Minister paid, less pressure and actually more prestige. So dun think that govt paid are high, it also peg to the market value, therefore as what LKY said, we need to have a competitive paid structure to attract talents and capable peoples who are willing to serve the country, otherwise, if u give peanuts, only monkeys and gorillas will come
Originally posted by angel7030:
Well, Everyone is born to struggle, from the begining, you start crying, nobody is born here laughing, siao liao. And from that moment u start to struggle for milk, sweets, foods and then when get older, you struggle for love, sex, education and fun...then, as an adult, you struggle with money, work, social, politic, mindset and more sex. Till the day you die, you still worry about whether your money is save or that PAP is still the govt or not? O c'mon lah, cool it Uncle.
Since you hv better Chicken Rice to eat than chattering box, why are you still oppose a govt that in one way or the other provide you the oppportunity to eat a good chicken rice??? Be contended ya.
Economic progress is always peg to a country progress and therefore an individual progress..last time GDP contribute to individual paid and bonuses, today, with a negative GDP on the horizontal, people accepted pay cuts and wage freeze.
oi auntie, you like calling everyone uncle hor, must be very young hor?
Well, why I am so vocal about my opinions is because I care for this country. If I don't care, I would just shut up. Seriously, as I said, I could just shut up coz I have very strong earning power, but I somehow still have that overriding urge to raise my opinions because I feel the need to. I don't raise just to this forum, I raise it to my PAP friends in the hope they can bring it up.
Okay after like half a day and a night being away from the forums, at least i see some common ground established between soul_rage and i (dude the discussion yesterday was painful lol but yes fruitful nonetheless ;)) and of course stevenson who just joined into this intellectual discussion too (welcome :)).
Yes soul_rage i particularly like your point about appreciating 'the country we are in. But it does not mean we make compromises just because the past was all glory.' I believe there is a need to renew the faith that the people have in the leaders. Many may not agree but as far as im concerned, i dont see Singapore sliding back where we come from. Instead i see our economy growing better to face tomorrow's challenges. Perhaps the lay person still feel left out from the plans of the government and that they arent taking care of us enough. But things i mentioned earlier bout the safety and such about your country are still being maintained today. Maybe our leaders can do more to improve the lives of the people and make more pro-people changes. But honestly i still do not get a sense of what most of you here want when asking for 'better' policies maybe you all can mention bout that.
Using high pay to deter politicians from corruption is sound based on the concept of opportunity costs. By increasing their pay, you are increasing the opportunity costs of losing the job. Rationally people would not risk $2 milllion to gain $50k (either they are damn poor with math or they are just plain stupid). The odds are not right. For people who play poker and other gambling games you will understand the significance of odds. This is one of the reasons why i support the high pay of politicians. Maybe to some greed is insatiable and no matter what you pay the politicians they are prone to corruption. True. Its just like no matter how harsh the penalty for murder is, people still kill. But by raising the pay, you lower the probability. Thats all we can do really, we cannot read minds, we cannot constantly supervise our politicians. So all we can do is to put the right incentives in place and hope they respond to them.
What im definitely critical of is the unnecessarily many minstrial posts as brought up by stevenson. While it is necessary to retain many 'brilliant minds' ( i know this is contentious) in the government, i agree there should be more forced retirements and allow these people to flex their brains in the private sector to contribute more directly to the economy as they close in on retirement age. It makes no sense to keep someone for 2 over decades drawing high pay and still expect him to churn out the same quality of work as he was in his younger days.
Originally posted by angel7030:
When Tony Tan was CEO of OCBC, his paid was much much higher than his Minister paid, less pressure and actually more prestige. So dun think that govt paid are high, it also peg to the market value, therefore as what LKY said, we need to have a competitive paid structure to attract talents and capable peoples who are willing to serve the country, otherwise, if u give peanuts, only monkeys and gorillas will come
Can u quote his monthly salary at OCBC? It seemed that whenever people mentioned that ministerial salary is lower that pte sector salary, they refused to state their
pte sector salary. As for the present ministerial salary, they seemed to b higher than some of the European countries.
Originally posted by angel7030:
When Tony Tan was CEO of OCBC, his paid was much much higher than his Minister paid, less pressure and actually more prestige. So dun think that govt paid are high, it also peg to the market value, therefore as what LKY said, we need to have a competitive paid structure to attract talents and capable peoples who are willing to serve the country, otherwise, if u give peanuts, only monkeys and gorillas will come
As I said before, serving the nation is, well, SERVING the nation. It's not a job. It's a servant to the people. Just as in non-profit organizations, the people go in knowing that they won't earn as much as if they were in corporate, but they go in anyway, with the passion to change things.
Either way, this is a point we cannot agree on. While your camp argues it based on a career perspective, I view it more as a serving the people perspective. Therefore, we will always not be agreeable.
Moreover, to remind you not to be a "0", "1" again, we don't pay people peanuts to serve the nation. We pay people reasonable amounts to serve the nation, not pay diamonds and cosmic rocks.
Originally posted by speakup-:Okay after like half a day and a night being away from the forums, at least i see some common ground established between soul_rage and i (dude the discussion yesterday was painful lol but yes fruitful nonetheless ;)) and of course stevenson who just joined into this intellectual discussion too (welcome :)).
Yes soul_rage i particularly like your point about appreciating 'the country we are in. But it does not mean we make compromises just because the past was all glory.' I believe there is a need to renew the faith that the people have in the leaders. Many may not agree but as far as im concerned, i dont see Singapore sliding back where we come from. Instead i see our economy growing better to face tomorrow's challenges. Perhaps the lay person still feel left out from the plans of the government and that they arent taking care of us enough. But things i mentioned earlier bout the safety and such about your country are still being maintained today. Maybe our leaders can do more to improve the lives of the people and make more pro-people changes. But honestly i still do not get a sense of what most of you here want when asking for 'better' policies maybe you all can mention bout that.
Using high pay to deter politicians from corruption is sound based on the concept of opportunity costs. By increasing their pay, you are increasing the opportunity costs of losing the job. Rationally people would not risk $2 milllion to gain $50k (either they are damn poor with math or they are just plain stupid). The odds are not right. For people who play poker and other gambling games you will understand the significance of odds. This is one of the reasons why i support the high pay of politicians. Maybe to some greed is insatiable and no matter what you pay the politicians they are prone to corruption. True. Its just like no matter how harsh the penalty for murder is, people still kill. But by raising the pay, you lower the probability. Thats all we can do really, we cannot read minds, we cannot constantly supervise our politicians. So all we can do is to put the right incentives in place and hope they respond to them.
What im definitely critical of is the unnecessarily many minstrial posts as brought up by stevenson. While it is necessary to retain many 'brilliant minds' ( i know this is contentious) in the government, i agree there should be more forced retirements and allow these people to flex their brains in the private sector to contribute more directly to the economy as they close in on retirement age. It makes no sense to keep someone for 2 over decades drawing high pay and still expect him to churn out the same quality of work as he was in his younger days.
High salary is definitely one of the factor to prevent taking bribes but the stake is too high esp anti corruption law is still strict in this country.