Originally posted by eagle:No leh... For engineering grads, public sector is paying more monthly. Just that I got bond with pte company.
But well, that's not stopping me from moving on to tuition to earn more than my peers ;)
True, some citizens can be quite nuisance towards public servants.
They don't ask citizens to fuck off. They just ignore, or direct you to another department, then another, then another and another, and finally back to the first department, who will direct you again. Happened before to someone I knew when the person went to ICA building.
Public pay more than private? really? do you mean starting pay?
The redirecting will result in complains and someone will still need to answer. but more likely than not, it's your friend got weird problem or he screwed up somewhere.
There is no such thing as endless referal. you will always be around, cannot fuck off to another country...
Originally posted by starExcaliblur:
Justifications for paying huge amounts of money to entice / retain them in govt seems crap to me. Comparing their salaries with top executives is even more crap.Motivating them with huge amounts of monetary rewards to do well in their job kinda reminds me of parents motivating their children to do well in their exams by rewarding them with money, gifts etc. This is flawed in the sense that they are doing the job ( serving the people / country ) for a lot of money instead of passion. The same applies to the children that want to do well in exams for the sake of money, gifts etc.
Serving the people / country should not be a job or a career, it should be a service. Only then can the person do it with passion without huge amounts of monetary rewards in mind. Unfortunately, this is not happening at all.
So are they serving the people / country with huge monetary rewards in mind or with passion in mind?
sure... if US president do serve for free....
Originally posted by skythewood:yup, good for you.
sacrifice 1.
For all levels, public sector will generally make less money, and less bonus. even the LHL cannnot compare.
sacrifice 2.
You will need to deal with member of public that will demand alot based on this one reasoning: they pay taxes. you will hear this everytime, and they will conveniently forget the fact you are paying taxes too.
sacrifice 3.
In private sector, you just try to make money., and provide service as best as you can. if customers not happy, they can fuck off. in public sector, you cannot pleased everyone. there is always some group of people that is not happy. that will always be a fact. You cannot ask citizens to fuck off.
Public sector earns more than private sector
Wrong count on that one. Many areas in the public sectors can make more money. Their starting pay is actually higher than that of private sectors. Not to mention that public sector has more stability compared to private sector.
LHL earns more in private? Are you very sure about that? Why do you think he can take up a top position in the 1st place if he is in the private sector? Is he really a top talent? Maybe you should name what he has achieved to justify he is a talent in the 1st place.
Dealing with Members of Public
I don't understand. Is this a sacrifice? If you work for a private company, you answer to the shareholders and stakeholders. If you work for the public sector, you answer to members of public. If you cannot handle the public, then it's not a sacrifice, but only that you are incapable of handling interpersonal relationships
Private Sector. Asking customers to F--k Off
Wrong on this count as well. Customers are the most demanding (Sometimes even more than the public), and there will always be unhappy customers. A top talent do not just tell the most demanding to f--k off (that shows the incapability of the person to handle interpersonal relationships again), but to be able to manage the expectations of the customer.
From the above, I still feel you do not know enough of both sides to comment. But, I commend your efforts to try to justify the difference. At least it's a fruitful discussion, rather than those who think that our leaders are justified in their astronomical pay, but yet, do not even know WHY. Sad.
Originally posted by skythewood:
Public pay more than private? really? do you mean starting pay?
The redirecting will result in complains and someone will still need to answer. but more likely than not, it's your friend got weird problem or he screwed up somewhere.
There is no such thing as endless referal. you will always be around, cannot fuck off to another country...
Public pay more than private? really? do you mean starting pay?
Yup. Definitely. You going to grad soon, never do homework on salaries ah?
The redirecting will result in complains and someone will still need to answer. but more likely than not, it's your friend got weird problem or he screwed up somewhere.
There is no such thing as endless referal. you will always be around, cannot fuck off to another country...
Face reality. There's a problem with the service quality; there's definitely nothing wrong about my friend.
Jack Neo also realised that this sort of things happen in civil service, and made a mockery out of it in his movie. It happens all too frequently.
Originally posted by soul_rage:Public sector earns more than private sector
Wrong count on that one. Many areas in the public sectors can make more money. Their starting pay is actually higher than that of private sectors. Not to mention that public sector has more stability compared to private sector.
LHL earns more in private? Are you very sure about that? Why do you think he can take up a top position in the 1st place if he is in the private sector? Is he really a top talent? Maybe you should name what he has achieved to justify he is a talent in the 1st place.
Dealing with Members of Public
I don't understand. Is this a sacrifice? If you work for a private company, you answer to the shareholders and stakeholders. If you work for the public sector, you answer to members of public. If you cannot handle the public, then it's not a sacrifice, but only that you are incapable of handling interpersonal relationships
Private Sector. Asking customers to F--k Off
Wrong on this count as well. Customers are the most demanding (Sometimes even more than the public), and there will always be unhappy customers. A top talent do not just tell the most demanding to f--k off (that shows the incapability of the person to handle interpersonal relationships again), but to be able to manage the expectations of the customer.
From the above, I still feel you do not know enough of both sides to comment. But, I commend your efforts to try to justify the difference. At least it's a fruitful discussion, rather than those who think that our leaders are justified in their astronomical pay, but yet, do not even know WHY. Sad.
One more thing about public sector. You ask citizens to fuck off, the job and salaries for the top management is still safe.
In private companies, you ask customers to fuck off, the job and salaries for the top management is at stake because sales will definitely decline.
Originally posted by soul_rage:Public sector earns more than private sector
Wrong count on that one. Many areas in the public sectors can make more money. Their starting pay is actually higher than that of private sectors. Not to mention that public sector has more stability compared to private sector.
LHL earns more in private? Are you very sure about that? Why do you think he can take up a top position in the 1st place if he is in the private sector? Is he really a top talent? Maybe you should name what he has achieved to justify he is a talent in the 1st place.
Dealing with Members of Public
I don't understand. Is this a sacrifice? If you work for a private company, you answer to the shareholders and stakeholders. If you work for the public sector, you answer to members of public. If you cannot handle the public, then it's not a sacrifice, but only that you are incapable of handling interpersonal relationships
Private Sector. Asking customers to F--k Off
Wrong on this count as well. Customers are the most demanding (Sometimes even more than the public), and there will always be unhappy customers. A top talent do not just tell the most demanding to f--k off (that shows the incapability of the person to handle interpersonal relationships again), but to be able to manage the expectations of the customer.
From the above, I still feel you do not know enough of both sides to comment. But, I commend your efforts to try to justify the difference. At least it's a fruitful discussion, rather than those who think that our leaders are justified in their astronomical pay, but yet, do not even know WHY. Sad.
yawn...
starting pay is everything ah? you go out to the street and ask anyone who gets more money, public or private, see what is the answer. LHL will never find out... he is stuck in govt le. Just like the rest of the people who sacrificed.
public is more nuisance than private. shareholders don't breathe down your neck every minute. the public do. and they will post stuff on forum, on STOMP about it. more scrutiny from public.
If you are the boss, and the customer piss you off enough, you just tell them fuck off... ask any taxi driver or hawker center boss... But not so for trolls against the government. They will always be breathing down the neck of govt.
Read my reply before giving more comments. being judgemental is sad.
Originally posted by skythewood:i see that you are demanding alot of answers from me, but simply ignore my questions. hoe much should YOU be paid? try answer some questions and convince me with your argument, not put me down with your "students will never understand" attitude.
That is being elitist.
I AM elitist. A product of the govt. A elitist govt who is detached from the mundane pains of the people.
I will tell you what should I be paid. I should be paid Market Rate, meaning that the market range that is paid to my peers in the same sector or similar position as me. It means I do not compare myself with doctors, lawyers, engineers because I am not in their sector.
So since you say you should be paid $3+k, why do you think you should be paid $3k+? Is it only because that's what the starting pay is for your domain, and that also equates to market rate for starting grads in that domain?
So do you now know what Market Rate is? Do you agree that our govt should be paid market rate for their work too?
Originally posted by soul_rage:I AM elitist. A product of the govt. A elitist govt who is detached from the mundane pains of the people.
I will tell you what should I be paid. I should be paid Market Rate, meaning that the market range that is paid to my peers in the same sector or similar position as me. It means I do not compare myself with doctors, lawyers, engineers because I am not in their sector.
So since you say you should be paid $3+k, why do you think you should be paid $3k+? Is it only because that's what the starting pay is for your domain, and that also equates to market rate for starting grads in that domain?
So do you now know what Market Rate is? Do you agree that our govt should be paid market rate for their work too?
i believe in to and fro conversation. i answer your question, you answer mine. How much do you expect?
Originally posted by skythewood:yawn...
starting pay is everything ah? you go out to the street and ask anyone who gets more money, public or private, see what is the answer. LHL will never find out... he is stuck in govt le. Just like the rest of the people who sacrificed.
public is more nuisance than private. shareholders don't breathe down your neck every minute. the public do. and they will post stuff on forum, on STOMP about it. more scrutiny from public.
If you are the boss, and the customer piss you off enough, you just tell them fuck off... ask any taxi driver or hawker center boss... But not so for trolls against the government. They will always be breathing down the neck of govt.
Read my reply before giving more comments. being judgemental is sad.
If you are going to start in the public sector, and you have not worked in private before, what gives you the right to make the comments above?
me being judgemental? I am being spot on that you do not have the experience (thus not the right) to make comments about the private sector.
If you work in the private sector with that attitude above, I think you will be sacked within a few months.
Yes I am sad. Sad for your callous attitude to handle interpersonal relationships
Originally posted by skythewood:i believe in to and fro conversation. i answer your question, you answer mine. How much do you expect?
I already answered you. It's based on market rate. And since you are so interested to know my pay, mine's 5-figure each month.
So answer me, do you know what market rate is now?
Originally posted by soul_rage:If you are going to start in the public sector, and you have not worked in private before, what gives you the right to make the comments above?
me being judgemental? I am being spot on that you do not have the experience (thus not the right) to make comments about the private sector.
If you work in the private sector with that attitude above, I think you will be sacked within a few months.
Yes I am sad. Sad for your callous attitude to handle interpersonal relationships
what? i have no right to comment?
I said my pay if i start in public is 3k+. not that i am going to start there. so what?
Originally posted by soul_rage:I already answered you. It's based on market rate. And since you are so interested to know my pay, mine's 5-figure each month.
So answer me, do you know what market rate is now?
good for you. no, i do not know the market rate, lack of info from you.
my turn. do you blame yourself or the govt for making you an elitist?
Originally posted by skythewood:what? i have no right to comment?
I said my pay if i start in public is 3k+. not that i am going to start there. so what?
You are losing your bearings
If you are not going to start there, that also means you cannot comment on the public sector as well.
Sitting around and listening to stories is different from truly experiencing stuff.
I have worked in both public and private sectors before, and I do know the differences from my experience.
Like I said, let's not pour cold water on you. Why not you start work, and then we continue this discussion on the pros and cons? It would give you more weight.
I'm glad I started in private company actually. Got more time and energy to give tuition till it is almost matching my salary :D
Originally posted by skythewood:good for you. no, i do not know the market rate, lack of info from you.
my turn. do you blame yourself or the govt for making you an elitist?
My advice to you. Go and look at Salary Surveys that Headhunters in Singapore do. It's that simple. The info is all out there, just whether you know or want to look for it or not.
Ans to your question. I do not blame anyone. There is actually nothing wrong with being elitist in the private sector. There is SOMETHING wrong to being elitist as a politician, because a politician SERVES the people, not the people SERVE the politician.
Go to wikipedia and search for "Servant Leadership". You will know what I mean.
My next question to you. If we base salaries on market rate (which is the global common practice), then wouldn't you not say that our politicians are being overpaid, as compared to other politicians, since market rate is based on jobs in the same sector, and not cross-sector?
Originally posted by soul_rage:You are losing your bearings
If you are not going to start there, that also means you cannot comment on the public sector as well.
Sitting around and listening to stories is different from truly experiencing stuff.
I have worked in both public and private sectors before, and I do know the differences from my experience.
Like I said, let's not pour cold water on you. Why not you start work, and then we continue this discussion on the pros and cons? It would give you more weight.
haha, what a way to do things.
Wrong, if my points are not valid, you can say so. but saying my points are not valid because i have limited experience, that is being juvenile.
so, same 3 sacrifice points, i made the rebuttal, are they valid? do you really think that public make more than private?
I will throw in an example: army pilots have better benefits than commercial pilots?
Originally posted by soul_rage:My advice to you. Go and look at Salary Surveys that Headhunters in Singapore do. It's that simple. The info is all out there, just whether you know or want to look for it or not.
Ans to your question. I do not blame anyone. There is actually nothing wrong with being elitist in the private sector. There is SOMETHING wrong to being elitist as a politician, because a politician SERVES the people, not the people SERVE the politician.
Go to wikipedia and search for "Servant Leadership". You will know what I mean.
My next question to you. If we base salaries on market rate (which is the global common practice), then wouldn't you not say that our politicians are being overpaid, as compared to other politicians, since market rate is based on jobs in the same sector, and not cross-sector?
yes, compared to other politician, they are overpaid. that is very obvious.
my turn, if Obama is paid 100 million per annun, will you think he is overpaid?
Originally posted by eagle:I'm glad I started in private company actually. Got more time and energy to give tuition till it is almost matching my salary :D
good for you...
Originally posted by eagle:I'm glad I started in private company actually. Got more time and energy to give tuition till it is almost matching my salary :D
Cool. I started off in the public on a bond, and now in the private.
Seriously, both has its pros and cons. I wouldn't say that the public job sacrifices more than the private job. I think it all boils down to attitude and passion.
My concern is that because the leaders of our country are overpaid, and too much emphasis is on $$$, they have also lost their bearings, and are only there for the $$$. They have forgotten that a politician should be passionate to the people, and not to $$$
Originally posted by skythewood:haha, what a way to do things.
Wrong, if my points are not valid, you can say so. but saying my points are not valid because i have limited experience, that is being juvenile.
so, same 3 sacrifice points, i made the rebuttal, are they valid? do you really think that public make more than private?
I will throw in an example: army pilots have better benefits than commercial pilots?
Yes you have limited experience, therefore your points hold not much water. In fact, when you 1st started off on the 3 sacrifices, I had already pointed out that your points are incorrect, because you do not know the pains of the private sector, and you are making sweeping remarks, such as things like asking customers to get lost (This attitude IS JUVENILE)
I am inclined to stop my discussion with you till you acknowledge what I have said first.
And coming to your point on army pilots and commercial pilots, you are losing the bearings again. Are you asking about salary, or are you asking about benefits? If you cannot even define what you are asking properly, its very difficult to discuss on a similar level.
Originally posted by skythewood:yes, compared to other politician, they are overpaid. that is very obvious.
my turn, if Obama is paid 100 million per annun, will you think he is overpaid?
Good you have acknowledged it (Finally).
Maybe you should rethink your question on Obama in another manner. WHY do you think he is only being paid the current salary ONLY?
Originally posted by soul_rage:Yes you have limited experience, therefore your points hold not much water. In fact, when you 1st started off on the 3 sacrifices, I had already pointed out that your points are incorrect, because you do not know the pains of the private sector, and you are making sweeping remarks, such as things like asking customers to get lost (This attitude IS JUVENILE)
I am inclined to stop my discussion with you till you acknowledge what I have said first.
And coming to your point on army pilots and commercial pilots, you are losing the bearings again. Are you asking about salary, or are you asking about benefits? If you cannot even define what you are asking properly, its very difficult to discuss on a similar level.
haha, i did acknowledged your points, didn't I? scroll up and look for it. I cut and paste for you bah.
ok loh, keep discussion on SALARY alone, at your request.
starting pay is everything ah? you go out to the street and ask anyone who gets more money, public or private, see what is the answer. LHL will never find out... he is stuck in govt le. Just like the rest of the people who sacrificed.
public is more nuisance than private. shareholders don't breathe down your neck every minute. the public do. and they will post stuff on forum, on STOMP about it. more scrutiny from public.
If you are the boss, and the customer piss you off enough, you just tell them fuck off... ask any taxi driver or hawker center boss... But not so for trolls against the government. They will always be breathing down the neck of govt.
Originally posted by soul_rage:Good you have acknowledged it (Finally).
Maybe you should rethink your question on Obama in another manner. WHY do you think he is only being paid the current salary ONLY?
I never acknowledged this meh? I always did. try looking for one post where i denied this.
he is being paid like this because of competition, supply and demand.
In singapore, where there are walk over in almost every GRC, the supply and demand is skewed... Sure, alot of people says they won't mind serving, but in the end, there are still lots of walk over GRC....
Originally posted by skythewood:haha, i did acknowledged your points, didn't I? scroll up and look for it. I cut and paste for you bah.
ok loh, keep discussion on SALARY alone, at your request.
*snip*
You are not acknowledging that your point on asking customers to get lost is both childish and callous.
Your comment itself is offending to people in private sector who strive hard everyday to ensure customers are satisfied so that our revenues continue to grow.
In fact, all other points that you make I can forget about it, it's this very point that is offensive.
To become successful, the main ingredient is not from your academic background, nor your technical skills. It's from how to interact with people. How to resolve conflicts and bring people to a commonly aligned level
Originally posted by skythewood:I never acknowledged this meh? I always did. try looking for one post where i denied this.
he is being paid like this because of competition, supply and demand.
In singapore, where there are walk over in almost every GRC, the supply and demand is skewed... Sure, alot of people says they won't mind serving, but in the end, there are still lots of walk over GRC....
And neither was there one post where you acknowledge you did, until this one.
GRC... another tool to ensure they stay in power. I think you are opening another can of worms, on how the PAP is using underhanded tactics to ensure the opposition cannot compete.
In fact, I think in the previous elections, some opposition members said that if they get the seat, they would give up their full time jobs, and concentrate on serving the citizens, living only on the MP's allowance.
Our MPs are the most well-paid in the world, in fact, the most well-paid PART-TIME job in the world.