Hong Kong sets Minimum Wage - What one Singaporean thinks
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Don't bullshit lah sista.
Can you even sleep at night knowing your workers cannot afford to pay their mortgage and eat 1 meal a day, just so you can open one more pub ? For you no problem right.
Instead of paying a decent pay, you'd rather exploit them with low wages for your personal gain and business expansion hor.
20 underpaid workers, and 2 pubs, vs 8 min wage workers and 1 pub. Ofcors you will choose to underpay them.
" GREED".. sista.. I will pray extra hard for you so you can keep your angel wings ok.
Which country delegate you talked to ? Not all forumers here are xiao di di xiao mei mei, so easily conned by you leh.
Companies move out ah.. move to where ? You want to open your pub in Malaysia and Indonesia ? Go lor.. how much can you sell your XO and Guinness stout in those countries ?
Removing mini wage condition ? Well, that's only possible in corrupt countries, because it is illegal ya. Try doing that in 1st world country lah.. you go explain to the judge lor.
Sista, money can earn.. but earn with a clear conscience. OK ? Good.
Yo sista, nobody owe nobody a living ya, you dun expect me to run a charity organisation here and act as if still making a profit, it is a killing field out there, suppliers are hot on the wheels with prices going up, employees wanting higher pays, customers are ever more demanding and govt are collecting higher and higher taxes. It is kind of like you see me good, i see you good, but actually all are in the same shit ya.
One man or woman have to make his own living, this is a capitalism world we voted and accepted, you can't expect me to go into those kind of communism or socialist way of doing business when your competitors and the rest are waiting to chop you down.
And dun you worry sista, i have never mistreat or underpaid my workers, employment relationship is important to sustain a business, otherwise, people will jump ship, today, it is a employee world out there, its their call.
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Originally posted by angel7030:
Yo sista, nobody owe nobody a living ya, you dun expect me to run a charity organisation here and act as if still making a profit, it is a killing field out there, suppliers are hot on the wheels with prices going up, employees wanting higher pays, customers are ever more demanding and govt are collecting higher and higher taxes. It is kind of like you see me good, i see you good, but actually all are in the same shit ya.
One man or woman have to make his own living, this is a capitalism world we voted and accepted, you can't expect me to go into those kind of communism or socialist way of doing business when your competitors and the rest are waiting to chop you down.
And dun you worry sista, i have never mistreat or underpaid my workers, employment relationship is important to sustain a business, otherwise, people will jump ship, today, it is a employee world out there, its their call.
Tough life being a boss aye ?
If there ain't no money to make, ya might as well go werk for someone else aye? Let others deal with da headaches aye ?
But noooo.. who's gonna pay for that cushy ride aye ? The big fat pay check and tons of Gucci aye? Them whining don't werk when you are at the top of da food chain.
Employee's call ? Really ? Well since ya been feeding yer underlings well.. why would you need to care if there be a minimum wage or not ?
Ya oughta be our poster girl for national minimum wage campaign.
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Dude, can you read up more on minimum wage first ?
Minimum wage is good for the economy.
With our current depressed wages ...and increase in poverty...If you have a local business, how are you going to sell your wares to 10 people who cannot even afford 1 meal ?
With minimum wage, there will be more people with disposable income that can afford to buy from you.
Also, minimum wage will level the field between foreign and native job seekers. You look at their ability and pick the one better suited for the job. Min wage helps to shift hiring decision of employers from "who is the cheapest" to who is the "best fit".
Now how can this be bad ??????
Harmful you say .. more like you are so ignorant
I believe we must have an understanding first about the nature of minimum wage, and what the impact would be.
The basic thing about minimum wage is this.....
Minimum wage is an externally imposed control, onto the labour market.
Minimum wage is government regulation.
It is not supply and demand.
It is a floor.
So what happens when that is applied ?
If that is applied, the ones below the floor would get cut off.
There are some other negative effects from it.
But basically, the most noticable effect is that it would actually promote unemployment.
So those youths working in 7-11 shops, those part-time cleaners, and so on........
They would get cut.
It benefits no one.
A floor or a ceiling ALWAYS introduces distortions and inefficiencies.
The way to improve people's living standards is by improving business opportunities, improving infrastcuture, education, workforce skills, condusive taxation rule......these are helpful.......if any price floor is imposed.....what good would it bring ? It is superficial and it wont work.
As to the nature about foreigners / foreign labours depressing wages.....
Well then..the answer is not really by applying minimum wage, but by having less incoming foreign labour supply. What does it have to do with minimum wage? This is like putting the cart before the horse.
But this foreign labour thing is another, more complex, issue. I believe there are some politics and strategic issues involved.
But in any case, minimum wage is suicidal and is harmful to society.
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Minimum wages are political tools used by politicians to pacify the workers and unemployed who are disgruntled.
These workers believe that with minimum wage legislation, they will not be exploited.
It is just a good dream but they will still have to wake up to face the harsh reality the next morning.
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Originally posted by Veggie Bao:
I believe we must have an understanding first about the nature of minimum wage, and what the impact would be.
The basic thing about minimum wage is this.....
Minimum wage is an externally imposed control, onto the labour market.
Minimum wage is government regulation.
It is not supply and demand.
It is a floor.
So what happens when that is applied ?
If that is applied, the ones below the floor would get cut off.
There are some other negative effects from it.
But basically, the most noticable effect is that it would actually promote unemployment.
So those youths working in 7-11 shops, those part-time cleaners, and so on........
They would get cut.
It benefits no one.
A floor or a ceiling ALWAYS introduces distortions and inefficiencies.
The way to improve people's living standards is by improving business opportunities, improving infrastcuture, education, workforce skills, condusive taxation rule......these are helpful.......if any price floor is imposed.....what good would it bring ? It is superficial and it wont work.
As to the nature about foreigners / foreign labours depressing wages.....
Well then..the answer is not really by applying minimum wage, but by having less incoming foreign labour supply. What does it have to do with minimum wage? This is like putting the cart before the horse.
But this foreign labour thing is another, more complex, issue. I believe there are some politics and strategic issues involved.
But in any case, minimum wage is suicidal and is harmful to society.
Why must cost of wages be left to supply and demand ? Why not let EVERYTHING in the market be left to supply and demand ? Abolish all authorities that regulate businesses and let the free hand work the market if you want a 100% free market. Lets get rid of big government in Singapore.....You know this ain't gonna work. Without some form of regulation, the free market will exploit EVERYTHING.
Do you know the history of union ? Why in the old days, people see the need to form unions ? Study the history please.
Students and part-timers getting cut? Obviously you don't know how minimum wage works. Get your ignorant ass out of Singapore and see how other countries are doing it.
"improving business opportunities, improving infrastcuture, education, workforce skills, condusive taxation rule." - FAIL. All these do not contribute to increasing wages. It only gives business owners a more condusive business environment. Does it equate to better salaries ? NO.
Immigration reform you say, this one yes, it affects demand supply. Now we have an overflow of foreign supply, so the price of wages goes down. Basic Econs. But do we want to stop immigration ? No. As much as I hate to admit, we do need them, but only good quality ones, and the ones we really need.
We can welcome immigrants with open arms, but let them compete fairly, base on QUALITY instead of Lowest Cost.
Right now, foreigners has an unfair advantage over the locals, so the best solution is minimum wage.
You can't have an open immigration policy that is driving up cost of living and yet not control the wage depression.
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Tough life being a boss aye ?
If there ain't no money to make, ya might as well go werk for someone else aye? Let others deal with da headaches aye ?
But noooo.. who's gonna pay for that cushy ride aye ? The big fat pay check and tons of Gucci aye? Them whining don't werk when you are at the top of da food chain.
Employee's call ? Really ? Well since ya been feeding yer underlings well.. why would you need to care if there be a minimum wage or not ?
Ya oughta be our poster girl for national minimum wage campaign.
well sista, when the going gets tough, the tough gets going..aint that sound nice.I aint no Gucci or Lavin gal, just a normal gal doing a normal business, and i believe you aint see the stress of running a business such as mine. Cos if there is a mini wage, wages will not become flexible enuf to react against an ever increase fluctuation of economy cyclical action!!! it will hurt both side more than helping it.
Hotels staffs are headhunted to join RWS and MBS at a remarkable paid, bankers and finanical hub seriously need more staffs, they are recruiting like mad with each competite with each others in paid, benefits and other special terms. A person can now really make a choice of what he/she wants to work for, job hopping and demand for higher remuneration is on the rise. The market is heating, hopefully, not overheated, a mini wage system could wipe out the entire employees call althogether, be it in good times or bad times.
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Originally posted by angel7030:
well sista, when the going gets tough, the tough gets going..aint that sound nice.I aint no Gucci or Lavin gal, just a normal gal doing a normal business, and i believe you aint see the stress of running a business such as mine. Cos if there is a mini wage, wages will not become flexible enuf to react against an ever increase fluctuation of economy cyclical action!!! it will hurt both side more than helping it.
Hotels staffs are headhunted to join RWS and MBS at a remarkable paid, bankers and finanical hub seriously need more staffs, they are recruiting like mad with each competite with each others in paid, benefits and other special terms. A person can now really make a choice of what he/she wants to work for, job hopping and demand for higher remuneration is on the rise. The market is heating, hopefully, not overheated, a mini wage system could wipe out the entire employees call althogether, be it in good times or bad times.
I think you are confused lah sista. Minimum wage is not maximum wage hor... workers want to job hop to higher pastures no one stopping them ah.
Besides that, minimum wage is good for your pub/night club leh.
As disposable income for the general public increases, more can afford to patronise your "entertainment" business yes? Now you driving collola, next year you can drive the Jaguar sports convertible ya.
Think positive sista, this island is your oyster. Don't forget me when you are rich and famous ok ? Good.
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
I think you are confused lah sista. Minimum wage is not maximum wage hor... workers want to job hop to higher pastures no one stopping them ah.
Besides that, minimum wage is good for your pub/night club leh.
As disposable income for the general public increases, more can afford to patronise your "entertainment" business yes? Now you driving collola, next year you can drive the Jaguar sports convertible ya.
Think positive sista, this island is your oyster. Don't forget me when you are rich and famous ok ? Good.
Aiyo sista, you set a mini wage serve no purpose here, give me a figure, and the bosses will know how to work on it,let say on the micro level, you set at 1.2k, so my bangala washers' pay will go up nearly 50% , I would have to remove some of them, choose the good ones behind, and with a 50% raise, they will work harder to cover those gone.
As for singaporeans, even if I can paid 1.5k to employ them, i paid only 1.2k and still can get them, and they cannot argue over it, cost that this is legal. And it takes years for them to get to 1.5k thru all those AI (annual increment).
On the marco level, as the economy progress and inflation set in, workers will have to fight for rise in mini wage inorder to change the laws, and that takes time, there will be debate at the employer federation, the workers' union, the Manpower ministry, the laws insitutions and so on..a lengthy process. And if you can see in some countries, riot, protest, street fighting with police going on just to rise that mini wage, isn't that pathetic and waste of time and effort.
Singapore adopting no to mini wage has so far serve us well, we paid as according to demand, skill, education, perfomances and contributions. Not just set a wage and any toms and dicks also can get that kind of Salary which in turn deprive some good ones from getting higher paid.
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True, but when the Mini wage set become obsolet, it will be an disadvantage to workers against the market, and if Mini wage is kept adjusting higher and higher, singapore will be less attractive to FDI, which is one of the pillar of growth, which in turn slump us now, peoples going jobless, and i getting less customers etc etc, all will be affected.
So now, what is the problem with singapore flexi wages system that we need to adhere to a mini wage, because some one or many of them have it, it does not mean that you need to eat rice when most of them are eating rice ya. As long as you are comfortable and stable, what is the deal?
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Originally posted by Genie99a:
Aiya....long story short.
Minimum wage is to ensure that anyone that is working can actually survive adequately in that environment.
What's the point of working if the money isn't enough? To be exploited meh?
Kind Regards
Genie
Who will ever say Money is enough, be it rich or poor, no one will say that their money is enough, not me either nor you. If someone said he/she has got enuf money already, that will be very strange. -
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Originally posted by Genie99a:
My father after moving overseas has little friends.... he told me $ enough le.... the most he can spend is 25% of his fortune
In Singapore different.... collecting properties
because his friends do the same oh, i forget, in the context of singapore only, even govt said their money is not enuf.
As for overseas, especially those little kampong, not much way to make money, so might as well proclaim that money is enuf for them.
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Originally posted by Devil7030:
These workers believe that with minimum wage legislation, they will not be exploited.
It is just a good dream but they will still have to wake up to face the harsh reality the next morning.
citizens in u.s, canada, france, south korea have a 'harsh reality' facing them the next morning?
meanwhile, other countries like swiss, italy and finland have collective bargaining agreements (read: minimum wages that changes pretty frequently)
singapore has nothing. not even good dreams. we are facing the harsh reality now
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Originally posted by angel7030:
let say on the micro level, you set at 1.2k, so my bangala washers' pay will go up nearly 50% , I would have to remove some of them, choose the good ones behind, and with a 50% raise, they will work harder to cover those gone.so half the bangala workers will go home? sounds good for a start
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dun just look at singapore itself. how abt france? britain? america? u guys honestly think they have it better there? mass retrenchment, sky-rocketing property prices, dirt wages, increased retirement age, social strife on the streets, terribly corrupt govt(like sarkozy and his little billion-dollar lifestyle), corrupted unions, etc. face it. the only 'haven' we know of where democracy actually succeeded in was in switzerland and norway. look at the rest of the world who follows democracy and so-called freedom of speech. look at the state they r in.
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Originally posted by Casopia-maplesea:
dun just look at singapore itself. how abt france? britain? america? u guys honestly think they have it better there? mass retrenchment, sky-rocketing property prices, dirt wages, increased retirement age, social strife on the streets, terribly corrupt govt(like sarkozy and his little billion-dollar lifestyle), corrupted unions, etc. face it. the only 'haven' we know of where democracy actually succeeded in was in switzerland and norway. look at the rest of the world who follows democracy and so-called freedom of speech. look at the state they r in.
france has assedic
britain has jobseeker's allowance and housing benefits
us has unemployment benefits
i dunno if they have it better, but i do know their government needs to pay you if you're a citizen and unemployed (i.e. it's to their advantage to help you get a job)
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Originally posted by angel7030:
Aiyo sista, you set a mini wage serve no purpose here, give me a figure, and the bosses will know how to work on it,let say on the micro level, you set at 1.2k, so my bangala washers' pay will go up nearly 50% , I would have to remove some of them, choose the good ones behind, and with a 50% raise, they will work harder to cover those gone.
As for singaporeans, even if I can paid 1.5k to employ them, i paid only 1.2k and still can get them, and they cannot argue over it, cost that this is legal. And it takes years for them to get to 1.5k thru all those AI (annual increment).
On the marco level, as the economy progress and inflation set in, workers will have to fight for rise in mini wage inorder to change the laws, and that takes time, there will be debate at the employer federation, the workers' union, the Manpower ministry, the laws insitutions and so on..a lengthy process. And if you can see in some countries, riot, protest, street fighting with police going on just to rise that mini wage, isn't that pathetic and waste of time and effort.
Singapore adopting no to mini wage has so far serve us well, we paid as according to demand, skill, education, perfomances and contributions. Not just set a wage and any toms and dicks also can get that kind of Salary which in turn deprive some good ones from getting higher paid.
Exactly how many bangalas you need to wash dirty dishes ? 1 to turn on the tap, 1 to rinse the dishes, 1 to dry and 1 to put the cleaned dishes away ? Seriously, are you hiring more than you need becuase they are so cheap anyway ?
Before the cheap foreign workers invaded our land, employers arn't struggling. Yes labour is tight, yet those with quality survived.
Now we have stalls sprouting up everywhere, cheap china workers serving our local fare.. the stall owners are shaking their legs elsewhere. The old and poor are collecting cans everywhere !!
Something is seriously wrong. So bring the min wage on !!
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Originally posted by Zweiz:
france has assedic
britain has jobseeker's allowance and housing benefits
us has unemployment benefits
i dunno if they have it better, but i do know their government needs to pay you if you're a citizen and unemployed (i.e. it's to their advantage to help you get a job)
The PAP government don't believe in helping her citizens along when they hit a bump, if you cannot find job in Singapore, you are either lazy or trying to leech off the hard working folks. It's never PAP's fault at importing foreigners en masse and causing disequilibrium in Singapore's labour market.
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Exactly how many bangalas you need to wash dirty dishes ? 1 to turn on the tap, 1 to rinse the dishes, 1 to dry and 1 to put the cleaned dishes away ? Seriously, are you hiring more than you need becuase they are so cheap anyway ?
Before the cheap foreign workers invaded our land, employers arn't struggling. Yes labour is tight, yet those with quality survived.
Now we have stalls sprouting up everywhere, cheap china workers serving our local fare.. the stall owners are shaking their legs elsewhere. The old and poor are collecting cans everywhere !!
Something is seriously wrong. So bring the min wage on !!
Tho i may take in cheap labours, but for supervisory and management grades I still employ true blue singaporeans, we do expect singaporeans to be better educated, better in management and better in control. However, there are still many singaporeans still stuck within the worker perimeter, and that is sad, because we expect singaporeans to be on top and not under the worker category. And I understand that it is because singapore is moving so fast result in these group of singaporeans unable to catch up, and even by the time they do thru training, reskilling or education, the young ones would had step into the market, and certainly, i will employ the young and youthful one. So, there left this group of singaporeans, in their late middle age and mostly lower than teritary education facing both a structural unemployment and self stubborness to work with the foreigners. Obviously, they still think that they are singaporeans and so they are more superior, but ultimately, they dunno who moved their cheese.
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Originally posted by Genie99a:
Haha u wish :-)...... Paterson Road used to be where my parents live.
mine at orange groove, when young, use to play with kids there beside shangri la hotel, are you one of them? -
beta as usual talking cock again.how do u leech off werk in first place from people???and how do u get to be lazy in spore werkplace in the first place????people who are lazy all ended up selling backside or end up cleaner in spore.
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i lived at grange road too...hey wadday know??!!!!we are all neighbours!!!
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Originally posted by redDUST:
you really got short memory. you are the one that said that "They can always fire you and re-employed someone else on minimum wages." . I am telling you that it doesn't work well from an employer's perspective because it is more costly to hire, train, etc.
no where did i imply that staff turnover is dependent on min wages. it is in your figment of imagination and in your course of argument, you got things all mixed up and start confusing things by putting words in my mouth.
it will be in your interest to argue to the point and succinctly. you can't even talk straight in this case. but of cos, cross-dresser like you are always in two minds, not sure if you should wear a dress or a pant.
great minds we have here....i am outta here.
Sian man .... SC is becoming a chewren fest.1. Kengkia likes Parn so whatever Parn says Kengkia follows lol.
2. Angel basically spews "sai" and spams it too lol. Her modus operandi is to argue out of point so long she posts more "sai" than your post she wins lol. Dun believe me... reply to one of her post... she will reply wif a post of "sai" de... lol.
3. Parn is basically not even in the working force and not of the age to consider starting a family.... my guess is her age 13-17 max.... to be honest. I also think she has a very bad opinion of guys probably due to some failed relationship. Anyways I hope she grows out of it.
Anyways like Dust I'm outta this thread too lol.... vomit blood discuss politics in SC.
Kind Regards
Genie