Naval accidents - Japan Defense Minister & Navy Chief sacked
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In typical Japanese culture of accountability and responsibility, the Japanese Defense Minister and the Chief of the Japanese Navy were fired from their posts for the two accidents involving the Aegis Destroyers - {one with a Japanese fishing vessel that killed two fishermen, and the other at the port of HoChiMinh City}. [See this Saturday's Straits Times, 22 March 2008, Front Section Page 12].
Despite MM LKY's publicly declared admiration to the Japanese culture of the Top Management taking direct responsibility for the misdemeanours of their subordinates, he does not believe that it applies to the Singapore Government nor to the Politics practised by his Political Party.
Unfortunately, his personal values do not apply to himself or his own creations, yet he will not hesistate to impose these same values onto the general Singaporean public follow..
As much as he will question the position of the Leadership fo the Alternative Political Parties to any mistakes made by their respective cardre members, he will not allow his own to take full responsibility nor be held accountable for mistakes made by his own.
The present Mas Selamat Kastari scandal is typical politics practised by the Ruling Party, where the Minister of Home Affairs is not held personally accountable for the on-going events that followed the escape of MSK.
Instead, the Singapore Media is employed to write up articles about MSK background, and propagate the supposedly sophisticated computerise data that log all unused or empty buildings that are either abandoned or under construction.
The Singapore Defense Minister and the Singapore Navy Chief remained safe and dry, and protected from the events that followed the naval accident between a Singapore Navy Missile Gun Boat with a Maersk Line Commercial Vessel - which resulted in the death of four Singapore Women Naval Personnel.
This is Singapore's culture of accountability - the buck stops at the level that is responsible for causing the event.
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Pay themselves millions some more.
Really a disgrace.
I really want to end the hegemony of this PAP ruling clique and their grip on power.
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tts because japanese have honour. they come from a long line of samurai... we? come from a long line of fishermen. lol.
there's no sense of honour like the japs.
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From past experience ministers are paid millions not to stop corruption but encourage to stay on to their job.
After the last collision our destroyer the senior officers in charge and navvy chief some rear admiral not only held on to his post even enjoyed a promotion.
If Mas Selamat is caught he will claim credit again but if he escapes a second time he will still stay on his post collecting three millions pa plus 8 months' bonus and later went on to receive his millions in life pensions without being deferred at 62.
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Originally posted by Atobe:
In typical Japanese culture of accountability and responsibility, the Japanese Defense Minister and the Chief of the Japanese Navy were fired from their posts for the two accidents involving the Aegis Destroyers - {one with a Japanese fishing vessel that killed two fishermen, and the other at the port of HoChiMinh City}. [See this Saturday's Straits Times, 22 March 2008, Front Section Page 12].
Despite MM LKY's publicly declared admiration to the Japanese culture of the Top Management taking direct responsibility for the misdemeanours of their subordinates, he does not believe that it applies to the Singapore Government nor to the Politics practised by his Political Party.
Unfortunately, his personal values do not apply to himself or his own creations, yet he will not hesistate to impose these same values onto the general Singaporean public follow..
As much as he will question the position of the Leadership fo the Alternative Political Parties to any mistakes made by their respective cardre members, he will not allow his own to take full responsibility nor be held accountable for mistakes made by his own.
The present Mas Selamat Kastari scandal is typical politics practised by the Ruling Party, where the Minister of Home Affairs is not held personally accountable for the on-going events that followed the escape of MSK.
Instead, the Singapore Media is employed to write up articles about MSK background, and propagate the supposedly sophisticated computerise data that log all unused or empty buildings that are either abandoned or under construction.
The Singapore Defense Minister and the Singapore Navy Chief remained safe and dry, and protected from the events that followed the naval accident between a Singapore Navy Missile Gun Boat with a Maersk Line Commercial Vessel - which resulted in the death of four Singapore Women Naval Personnel.
This is Singapore's culture of accountability - the buck stops at the level that is responsible for causing the event.
sg ministers taking responsibility? pigs can fly!
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If he adopt such practise... they are no longer in the business liao...
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The Singapore Defense Minister and the Singapore Navy Chief remained safe and dry, and protected from the events that followed the naval accident between a Singapore Navy Missile Gun Boat with a Maersk Line Commercial Vessel - which resulted in the death of four Singapore Women Naval Personnel.
u got it wrong it wasn't a missile gun boat its a anti-submarine patrol vessel
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Originally posted by ixidor:
The Singapore Defense Minister and the Singapore Navy Chief remained safe and dry, and protected from the events that followed the naval accident between a Singapore Navy Missile Gun Boat with a Maersk Line Commercial Vessel - which resulted in the death of four Singapore Women Naval Personnel.
u got it wrong it wasn't a missile gun boat its a anti-submarine patrol vessel
You are correct in that the RSS Courageous was an anti-submarine patrol vessel.The RSS Courageous was the first batch of the Fearless Class of Patrol Vessel, and according to information from Singapore Technologies - the second batch of the Fearless Class was supposed to be a Missile Patrol Boats.
These Missile Patrol Boats were superceded by a larger class of Missile Corvettes.
Unfortunately, types of vessels aside, the moral standards of accountability is shamefully deficient in a Ruling Political Party when it will not place the same standard of measure on themselves, but will dare to preach to the Leadership of an Alternative Party - by holding it responsible for the administrative failings of its subordinate over a piece of paper.
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Japan have many more naval officers ... but ...
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the Lees and WKS are 1 big family. must help and cover each other out mah.
just like you go army, officers covering officers, regulars covering regulars, the barber friend friend with the RSM then the RSM will help him find people to go for hair cut even if you just got your hair cut last week.
lan lan suck thumb only.
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In Singapore, probably they will find some scapegoat in the navy to sack. Then they tell you that the Minister of Defence and Navy Chief is not responsible for the work of their juniors.
This is part of living under a dictatorial regime, the family members of the ruling elites are often spared punishment for their incompetence.
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i dont see why should the parent be caned in school for their child's mistake. So why should the Minister or the CNV be taken to task for a navigational mistake made by the Navigation Officer at bridge? if they should be taken to task, then all the bosses of transportation and logistical companies shall be taken to task for road accidents caused by their drivers.
and btw, Courageous isnt a missile patrol boat neither is ANL Indonesia a Maersk Line Commercial Vessel.
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Originally posted by foxtrout8:
i dont see why should the parent be caned in school for their child's mistake. So why should the Minister or the CNV be taken to task for a navigational mistake made by the Navigation Officer at bridge? if they should be taken to task, then all the bosses of transportation and logistical companies shall be taken to task for road accidents caused by their drivers.
and btw, Courageous isnt a missile patrol boat neither is ANL Indonesia a Maersk Line Commercial Vessel.
parents should be caned if their child is delinquent..
in the same way, the Mini-star should take responsibility for a total clusterfuck like the terrorist running away.. it's a simple matter of ethics..
ohh.. i forgot.. they skipped that lesson...
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Originally posted by foxtrout8:
i dont see why should the parent be caned in school for their child's mistake. So why should the Minister or the CNV be taken to task for a navigational mistake made by the Navigation Officer at bridge? if they should be taken to task, then all the bosses of transportation and logistical companies shall be taken to task for road accidents caused by their drivers.
and btw, Courageous isnt a missile patrol boat neither is ANL Indonesia a Maersk Line Commercial Vessel.
If you persist in thinking the way you do, then what's the responsibility of the Minister.
If one is the Minister, he can choose to slack all the way, paying no regards to maintaining service quality. The Minister can just sleep, go shopping and play golf every day, if something happens, it's not his problem, it's the problem of his juniors.
If every person from the top management down to the middle management all have this doctrine perpetrated by the Minister, then what kind of system have you.
It's always the fault of the frontline staff, the senior staff are free from blame because they are not directly related to the event.
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why only delinquents? small petty misconduct and juvenile delinquency should be weigh the same for they may resulted from a lack of parental supervision..
if a whole range of mistake made within the ministry can be traced to the lack of upper echelon's supervision (which therefore deserves the punishment of dismissal), then parents should be taken to task for all forms of misconduct of the child.
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Originally posted by foxtrout8:
i dont see why should the parent be caned in school for their child's mistake. So why should the Minister or the CNV be taken to task for a navigational mistake made by the Navigation Officer at bridge? if they should be taken to task, then all the bosses of transportation and logistical companies shall be taken to task for road accidents caused by their drivers.
and btw, Courageous isnt a missile patrol boat neither is ANL Indonesia a Maersk Line Commercial Vessel.
Why should 1 man,or only a small group of men be responsible for the success of Singapore?
If the top wants to take all the credit, then so should the blame.
If the credit is shared down the hierarchy, then so should the blame.
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Originally posted by maurizio13:
If you persist in thinking the way you do, then what's the responsibility of the Minister.
If one is the Minister, he can choose to slack all the way, paying no regards to maintaining service quality. The Minister can just sleep, go shopping and play golf every day, if something happens, it's not his problem, it's the problem of his juniors.
If every person from the top management down to the middle management all have this doctrine perpetrated by the Minister, then what kind of system have you.
It's always the fault of the frontline staff, the senior staff are free from blame because they are not directly related to the event.
Upper echelon staff should be blame for mistakes made that are avoidable at their level but they with all their responsibility and power did not avoid.
Take the Courageous incident for example. I dont see how can the minister for defence and the CNV avoid the mistakes made by the NO at bridge.
So should all NO at bridge consult the minister and CNV for every change of course and speed in the future before executing it?
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Originally posted by kilua:
Why should 1 man,or only a small group of men be responsible for the success of Singapore?
If the top wants to take all the credit, then so should the blame.
If the credit is shared down the hierarchy, then so should the blame.
It is wrong for that man to take all the credit. I am not standing on the side of this issue about credit taking..
Two wrongs doesnt make one right. The mistake of credit taking shouldnt be accepted in tandem with mindless head rolling.
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Originally posted by foxtrout8:
Upper echelon staff should be blame for mistakes made that are avoidable at their level but they with all their responsibility and power did not avoid.
Take the Courageous incident for example. I dont see how can the minister for defence and the CNV avoid the mistakes made by the NO at bridge.
So should all NO at bridge consult the minister and CNV for every change of course and speed in the future before executing it?
If the superintendant was responsible for his junior officers.Who is responsible for the superintendant slacking in his duties?
If you know management structure, it's not too difficult to see where the pyramid ultimately leads to.
Obviously the top must have been slack, that's why the bottom also slack.
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Originally posted by foxtrout8:
Upper echelon staff should be blame for mistakes made that are avoidable at their level but they with all their responsibility and power did not avoid.
Take the Courageous incident for example. I dont see how can the minister for defence and the CNV avoid the mistakes made by the NO at bridge.
So should all NO at bridge consult the minister and CNV for every change of course and speed in the future before executing it?
Maybe you can give me an answer as to my initial post.If the Ministers goes about playing golf, sleeping and shopping, and something happens in the Ministry.
Who is to be responsible? The junior staff? What's to prevent this from happening?
The salary you get paid goes with the responsibility you bear, it's funny being paid afew millions (5-6 times the salary of President Bush), but you don't have to bear the responsibility.
Investment bankers get paid millions, if one of their junior staff is incompetent, forgets to process a sell order, the bank ends up losing billions of dollars. Who is responsible? The junior staff who is being paid $2,000 a month; or the banker who is paid millions?
Most Singaporeans don't think objectively, most of them get brainwashed by P4P propaganda in the newspaper and tv.
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Originally posted by foxtrout8:
It is wrong for that man to take all the credit. I am not standing on the side of this issue about credit taking..
Two wrongs doesnt make one right. The mistake of credit taking shouldnt be accepted in tandem with mindless head rolling.
if it is not for a man or a small group to take all credit, it doesnt justify the millions paid to them
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maybe this question is most pertinent: can they justify their wage?
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thank you for the chinese quote as it is very relevant to our topic.
it is unfortunate that there are very little information available to the public on the ISD management structure as well as their line of procedures thus the MSK issue is very difficult to assess. But jus for my 2 cents worth, although the escape of MSK has a unmeasurable effect on our security, it was all but the mistake of the frontline officers as well as the misjudgement of the supreintendant. I cant see why WKS as minister of MHA (consisting of so many agencies) should be taken to task over mistakes made in escort and in the feature of the prison structure.
Sacking WKS is like sacking the head of NTUC when one of the supermarket went on fire just because one staff was smoking in the room and the fire alarm system is faulty.
The MSK issue is sketchy so thats just my gut take but on the Courageous issue, i hope u guys understand that the CNV and the Minister of defence got nothing to do with the accident.
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Originally posted by laurence82:
if it is not for a man or a small group to take all credit, it doesnt justify the millions paid to them
the millions paid to them is of another issue...even if they are paid 2 dollars, the mistakes done in the Courageous issue is clearly unavoidable at their level.very importantly i think pple should take the blame for issues within their immediate responsibilities and reachable power not according onli and importantly to the amount of money they earn.
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Originally posted by foxtrout8:
thank you for the chinese quote as it is very relevant to our topic.
it is unfortunate that there are very little information available to the public on the ISD management structure as well as their line of procedures thus the MSK issue is very difficult to assess. But jus for my 2 cents worth, although the escape of MSK has a unmeasurable effect on our security, it was all but the mistake of the frontline officers as well as the misjudgement of the supreintendant. I cant see why WKS as minister of MHA (consisting of so many agencies) should be taken to task over mistakes made in escort and in the feature of the prison structure.
Sacking WKS is like sacking the head of NTUC when one of the supermarket went on fire just because one staff was smoking in the room and the fire alarm system is faulty.
But on the Courageous issue, i hope u guys understand that the CNV and the Minister of defence got nothing to do with the accident.
uhh.. sacking WKS?i expected him to offer to tender his resignation instead of battening down the hatches and start apportioning blame to his kar-kia...
that's conduct unbecoming of an officer.. conduct unbecoming of anyone who is supposed to shoulder the responsibility of the security of the nation...
that being said, we see their true colours and what we suspected them to be, they've confirmed with their actions...